TOP CMO: Raja Rajamannar, MASTERCARD - 'Mastering Marketing's Five Senses'

Raja Rajamannar  0:00  

Most of the people are typically blessed with five senses. If you start understanding the science behind sound, the science behind sight, and also behind the other three sensors, you will be able to get to the hearts and minds of consumers in extremely unique fashion that is priceless.

Ben Kaplan  0:17  

This is the podcast where we go around the globe to interview marketing leaders for the world's biggest brands, fastest growing companies and most disruptive startups. Three ideas packaged a certain way want to spread, they want to be told to someone else's simple, surprising and significant data to unlocking viral creativity is to make it rapidly scalable. This is top cmo with me, Ben Kaplan. today I'm chatting with Raja Raja menar, the Chief Marketing Officer of one of the world's leading payment technology companies. Of course, I'm talking about MasterCard.

Speaker 3  0:52  

Because a world designed for all of us is priceless. There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard.

Ben Kaplan  1:02  

Raja has been recognized as one of the top 50 Most Influential CMOS in the world has been a driving force behind some of MasterCards most successful global marketing campaigns. He is a prolific writer and speaker, and advocate for the transformative power of technology, and shaping the future of marketing. Raj is also the author of the book, Quantum marketing, mastering that new marketing mindset for tomorrow's consumers, which has been praised for its fresh perspective on how marketers can leverage the power of data and technology to create more personalized and engaging experiences. So why does he believe that marketing is about to change forever? Let's find out with Raja Raja menar. You have a unique view of why marketing is being disrupted now, and how that fits in with the evolution of marketing. So why is marketing changing as we know it? Why is it so different than before

Raja Rajamannar  2:01  

marketing typically follows people's lives and how people are interacting with each other with their environment. And as they change, marketing has to evolve based on that. And what I mean by that is, for example, in 2007, when there were two technologies that came about, one was called social media platforms when Facebook scaled. And then there was the launch of the digital media devices through iPhone, people's lives have been completely transformed between social media and connected ubiquitous mobile devices. Now what happens is when this is happening, you know that consumers are now always on their reachable anytime around the day, and you know, where they are at any given point in time based on their location analysis, and so on. So you understand consumers context better, and social media is where they're conversing and interacting in ways completely different than before the launch of the social media platforms. When this happens, marketing actually shifted, it's in literally it was a paradigm shift from the third paradigm of marketing to the fourth paradigm of marketing. All the previous shifts, major shifts in how marketing was being done, were driven by two technologies. So for example, in this fourth paradigm, because of the mobile devices and because of the social media platforms, new forms of marketing were born, mobile media marketing or mobile marketing, influencer marketing, social media marketing, location based marketing, these things did not exist prior to these two platforms being available. So when new technologies are available, our new technologies are driving consumer behavior, and even corporate behavior that is an opportunity for marketing to be able to leverage those trends and those technologies to connect better with the consumers. Today, unlike in the previous paradigm shifts, which were enabled by two technologies at a time, we are going to be disrupted by 24 different technologies from artificial intelligence, augmented reality, virtual reality and FTS blockchains. The whole Metaverse, then your talk of autonomous driving vehicles, 5g, telecommunications, Internet of Things, wearables, the list goes on and on. And each one of these is substantially capable of changing consumers lives in a significant way, are changing and transforming corporates and how they behave or how they perform and how they operate. pretty significantly. The combination of these is going to have an unprecedented level of disruptive effect in the field of marketing. And that's what I say marketing is at the verge of entering the fifth paradigm. And in this fifth paradigm, that traditional frameworks that traditional theories of marketing, their traditional ways of doing marketing are all breaking down. And we need to reinvent and reimagine marketing. And that new way of doing marketing is what I call quantum marketing.

Ben Kaplan  4:51  

And just to paraphrase the thought process here, you're saying a few things. One, you're saying technology and developments and technology is connected with marketing through one degree of separation. And that degree of separation is consumer behavior. So specifically, if technology and technology shifts are fundamental enough, then it's going to shift how people live their lives. And marketers have to reflect how people live their lives. So you want to meet them at the right place at the right time with the right message, the right person. So you're going to have to shift to that. And the second part of that you're saying is that because of the confluence of technology shifts now, and that's kind of unprecedented in many ways, we're going to have an unprecedented shift in marketing, that's gonna reshape traditional ways we do marketing, in terms of the logic flow that leads us to quantum marketing. Close your eyes and imagine your favorite product. What do you see? Is it sleek? Is it modern? Is it vibrant? Is it bold? Now open your eyes and take a look at the world around site is a powerful sense to Leverage Marketing, and the visual impact of a product can make or break a sale. By harnessing the power of striking graphics, visuals and innovative designs, you can create an emotional connection with your customers and communicate your brand's values in a split second. So open your eyes to the possibilities of visual marketing and start making a lasting impression.

Raja Rajamannar  6:34  

There are also two other dimensions beyond technology that are also ushering in this fifth paradigm of marketing technology is by far the biggest. The second one is data, we feel already we are being saturated with too much of data and consumers are already feeling creeped out that there is so bizarre spooked out that there is so much amount of data about them, that they're concerned about their privacy, and there is a concern from the regulators about how companies are using data. But we haven't even scratched the surface of data. Because when the Internet of Things come in, and when every device is actually connected device. If you look at most recent CEUs, you have got connected toilets, your card connected coffeemakers, connected refrigerators, everything is connected. What does that mean? These connected devices are collecting data. And they're putting them somewhere in the cloud. Now marketers have to figure out what do they collect even? And that which is collected? How do they connect the disparate sources of data or the types of data that comes at them? And how do they make sense out of it. And if you make sense of it, you can get to powerful insights that they can truly leverage to differentiate their brand, be even more relevant to the consumers needs, and be even more effective with their marketing campaigns. So there's the second one is the data deluge, as I call it. The third one is there are significant cultural shifts which are happening, we're actually in this phase, seeing some dramatic shifts around the world. culturally speaking, either there is rise of nationalism across multiple countries. So citizens of countries are more concerned, and getting a little bit more insulated, saying that this is my country, and my country is better than your country, or why are you coming to my country can have one types, then there is the other extreme of it, which is inclusion. If you talked about LGBTQIA, a few years back, you would really be looked upon as a strange person and you're lucky, out of the ordinary either extremity kind of a person, but now LGBTQ is being mainstreamed, which is brilliant, or whether it is BlackLivesMatter, which did not exist even 1015 years back the way it has pervaded into corporations and into marketing campaigns and marketing activities, the kind of cultural changes are actually going to be dramatically impacted. Because at the end of the day, marketing is all about connecting with consumers, through their hearts might start out with the hearts and minds. And when they themselves are transforming either individually or collectively as communities we have to adapt. So it's the fourth three dimensions, a tsunami of technology, a deluge of data, and tectonic shifts in culture. These are the three things which will usher us into the world of quantum marketing.

Ben Kaplan  9:15  

If we accept those things to be true, then there's a few extensions of that that become important one, it's a very exciting time to be a marketer, there's a lot at your disposal to there's a lot of unknowns about marketing right now. So it's a daunting time to be a marketer to so how do we go from these theories and at a high level, which is a fun thing to think about a debate but then also in your role as CMO of MasterCard, now you've got to produce not only campaigns, you've got to produce creative, but it can't just be campaigns and creative. It actually has to drive a result we have to measure ROI. You probably can't go too far into the future or you stopped driving results from MasterCard, and that's like a great experiment, but it doesn't dry. Have a business results. So if we assume all that to be true, how does that impact in the day to day for all the other CMOS listening who are like, I got to jump on board this, I can't be left behind, we're disrupted, we've got to shift. But then I still got to drive this quarter's results.

Raja Rajamannar  10:13  

In fact, what is beautiful is that quantum marketing and quarterly results are not mutually exclusive. In fact, quantum marketing will drive you both the current results for performance marketing, as well as for the future robustness of your brand of your business and offer your competitive advantage. So typically, when you look at purely performance marketing, you're trying to win every single week, every single day in your business and you're running on a treadmill constantly, but you're still in the same room in the same place running on the treadmill furiously. When you look at quantum marketing, what you're trying to do is even as you're accomplishing your day to day goals and objectives and measuring your ROI set cetera you are also planning for the future in a profound fashion that is going to distinguish you and separate you from your competition. On the one hand number two, it advantages you through better efficiencies and efficacy is because basically, you are connecting with the consumers most appropriate way. Let me just make it a little bit more tangible. Say take MasterCard example itself. So at MasterCard, first thing we started off as one of the elements of quantum marketing is what we call is multi sensory marketing.

Ben Kaplan  11:25  

Have you ever found yourself humming a catchy jingle, or remembering the sound of a brand's tagline?

Unknown Speaker  11:36  

You're lucky charms are magically delicious. Because a world designed for all of us is priceless.

Ben Kaplan  11:43  

That's the power of sound and marketing. Whether it's a memorable melody or a soothing voice, the sense of sound can create a lasting impression and make it easier to recall. And remember your brand essence by incorporating music, sound effects, or voiceovers. You can add a new dimension to your brand's personality and create a strong emotional connection with your audience. How can we turn up the volume on marketing and with the power of sound elevate your brand, let's ask Russia.

Raja Rajamannar  12:18  

Most of the people are typically blessed with five senses, the sense of sight, sound, touch, taste and smell. However, when you look at consumers absorbing this data from the five senses, and making sense out of it, marketers are only focused on two senses typically the sense of sight and the sense of sound. And both these also do not get into the science behind sound. But they say how does it seem good. Let me put the background music in this particular fashion, I need to get more energy for my advertisement. Maybe this is the kind of energy that this music has to generate me, let's make it fast paced or beats or whatever else occurs. That is very rudimentary. If you start understanding the science behind sound, the science behind sight, and also behind the other three sensors, you will be able to get to the hearts and minds of consumers in extremely unique fashion. What does it mean? So when you look at sense of vision, so we used to have a logo, which has got the red and yellow circles with MasterCard written in between it. Now that is one of the most universally recognized logos around the world. But then when we started understanding what happens in consumers, psychology and consumers perception of the brand, they felt that it was probably a little obsolete. It's a little outdated. In other words, it was not really aspirational, but very unexcited, uninspiring kind of thing. So we said high recognition, but low quality, our perception How do we change this, and what we started doing is to study the science behind how people perceive different shades of color. Now, I cannot get rid of the two circles of MasterCard, not the red and yellow colors, not the name MasterCard, keeping all these three constant and that that's all there is in my logo, I still need to make my logo be more contemporary, more futuristic, more aspirational, and more youthful. So when we started trying to play with the colors, what we found is slight changes in colors, or in the shades of a given color can have a profound impact on the perception. And this is not a qualitative statement. But actually it is quantitatively measured on different dimensions. So we actually do something called neuro marketing in this, which is we keep some in our headsets on people's heads literally, to see which aspects of the brain are actually lighting up when different stimulus are given, for example, colors in this case. So we relaunched our entire logo with big things. Number one, we retain the red and yellow circle, but we change the level of overlap between the two circles. And that had a profound impact. Number two, we change the shapes of the red and the yellow that we're using ever so slightly, but very meaningful difference in perception. And number three, we complete dropped in a MasterCard, the word I just have the symbol as our logo. And the reason for that is symbols are processed through a different part of the brain or a different mechanism than compared to words. So when you take the words away, you just have symbol but it actually gets more deeper into people's minds and hearts, what is the where is the proof that this is something which works other than the research that is done without through the regular methods, what we actually find is our brand has started gaining in strength year over year over year. So when I took over the brand was number 87. So it was still a top 100 brand that they inherited today it is at number 12 as rated by multiple studies, whether it is brand z, which is done by cantar, or inter brands has rated us as one of the fastest growing brands and as a top riser over the last three years since we started getting into this whole methodology. So it is something which is giving tangible results. As far as for example, in this case, branding is concerned

Ben Kaplan  15:55  

at our agency, we have done a number of neuro marketing lead campaigns, we've looked at a lot of small little changes that have profound differences in the science behind it. One thing we haven't done, as much of as you mentioned, the five senses, touch, taste and smell, what you said is that sort of sight and sound are relied upon. But we kind of you know, somewhat do it in a rudimentary way we could have more science behind it, but touch, taste and smell. How is MasterCard, leveraging that in a way that you know, there might be a lot of CMOS listening like I don't know, if I'm leveraging smell at all, unless I have a food product? How are you doing that?

Raja Rajamannar  16:31  

The first thing is one of the fallacies that prevails widely or misconceptions is that if you're to leverage these three senses, you have to be in those categories where those dimensions are relevant. So if you're creating a for example, it pilots of the sense of smell is very critical, or toothpaste, the sense of taste is very critical.

Ben Kaplan  16:54  

For food and beverage companies, taste is always a key factor to communicate, regardless of the functional benefits of your product. But what appeared not a food or beverage company, according to Raja and MasterCard, even if you're in the payments business, the way to a person's heart is through their stomach.

Raja Rajamannar  17:18  

So there's a natural and an obvious fit there. What do you do for a company like MasterCard, which has nothing to do with any of this, we're not going to create edible cards from a point of paste, right? So what was the difference? The idea is people love eating, people love the experience around eating both the food and the experience around the food. If your brand can be juxtaposed in a meaningful way to those eating experiences, you will actually enter the brain through the sense of taste, there is an association between that great experience, which is founded on taste and the brand that has made it happen. So we started our first initial experimentation was when curating what we call as priceless tables by MasterCard. So we put up our very first table was on top of a billboard in Times Square in Manhattan. And on the billboard on the table, we were serving a five course meal for about 20 people. And with the by Michelin starred chef people would actually I've run to be able to get those experiences to the computers, and then try to book seats on that. And we just got sold out in a few minutes, literally for a one full week program. And then we did post test on these people. Do they remember the experience? Yes, do they associated with MasterCard, because I might have a great experience. But that's it. I don't associate it with any brand, it doesn't matter. And do they recognize in this specific situation that MasterCard is a purveyor of experiences that are outstanding and extraordinary, which we call priceless in the culinary space. So we started going with that. And today we run at any point in time, around 1000 Priceless tables around the world at any given point in time, number one, number two, we took it to the next level, we went and started launching restaurants. These restaurants are priceless by MasterCard, and restaurant, for example, the most recent one we launched was in San Paulo in Brazil. And that has been rated as the best restaurant in Brazil, we have launched one in Mexico City launched it was rated as the best restaurant in Mexico, the country, not just the city. So what happens is, now people are saying, oh, I need to get into this restaurant because it's a happening place. The experiences are exotic, and I know that I'll have an unexpectedly delightful experience out there. So there's a lot of element of surprise and delight, etc. And then they would want and they know that the only way they can get these experiences is through MasterCard. So they have to use their MasterCard they have to book through MasterCard, etc. And that has started actually increasing the association between the sense of taste and MasterCard in a significant way. As one example. We also went and started creating some specific items. We partnered with Laduree we partnered with them and they create At two flavors exclusively for MasterCard, one red colored background, and one yellow colored background, and that we make those available as part of the experience for our consumers and for our customers at our various events. And from time to time during the year, we also put it up on sale on priceless.com. So this is how we got into taste, though we have intuitively speaking, there is nothing that MasterCard has got directly to do with taste, but we got it to the taste in this way, likewise, and fragrances are sent, we launched two fragrances, our first fragrances have been launched. And these have been developed by two world class female fragrance developers using sustainable material and the proceeds from the fragrances go back to the communities from which we are sourcing these materials. And these are called again, priceless. And the two variants are passionate, which is red color, and optimism which is yellow, and their outstanding fragrances and we sell them on priceless.com. And when they launched it in Italy in Milan, pre Christmas, it just got sold out. No, we don't have experience as a company managing fragrances and how do you transport from one place to another? How do you get the manufacturing and all that stuff, which is very unusual for us. But in my previous life, I worked with Unilever and I was handling fragrances at the time as part of my portfolio that came in partly handy though the technologies have advanced quite a lot since the time I was working there. But we got into fragrances now and we are getting into room diffusers now. So when you go to your MasterCard Experience Center or the technology hub, where we invite our customers take it an immersive holistic experience, which is in a ambiance of very positive scent, your feelings are much more positive, your receptivity to messages is much better. So we are really getting into the science of it quite yet. It's pretty fascinating.

Ben Kaplan  21:48  

Psychologists have shown the sense of smell to be a powerful trigger of memories that are deeply ingrained in our minds. But unless you're marketing, the aroma of freshly baked bread, or the crisp scent of a new car, utilizing smell in your marketing campaigns can seem more challenging. So how does MasterCard do it? Welcome to the wonderful world of MasterCard, fragrance. The idea of associating brands with something positive that is related to it is not new, right? The whole field of sponsorship marketing is based on this celebrity endorsements is based on this that power of that association, but that what you're doing is actually saying we want that power of association to actually directly align with census, and specifically census because these are pathways scientifically to either make someone more receptive to your message to sort of have a more sort of omnipresent message to find a new way to reach one, maybe distinguish your brand in some way because very few brands are thinking about what they're doing with, you know, a fragrance or Michelin star restaurant on top of the Billboard. So it's interesting that connection, if I'm going to read between the lines here, what it also sounds like was that MasterCard is prioritizing experiential marketing, maybe more so than before other brands compared to an advertising led brand or something like that. Would that be a fair statement that experiential marketing, the senses lead you to experiential marketing,

Raja Rajamannar  23:21  

absolutely spot on, we pivoted away from advertising led marketing to experiential marketing and experiences are where we try to engage all the five senses of the consumers in those experiences, which are truly immersive. And we tried to surround them with that positive experience and to various sensors that creates the right kind of association positive association between my brain and these experiences. And therefore consumers are actually clearly telling us that they like our brand bought the brand likability score has gone up the brand relevance score to their lifestyle has conducted a study, if you look at it one way, when you're going to a bank and applying for the credit card, for example, you don't say give me a MasterCard, you say give me a credit card of that particular bank. And the bank will give you the just take it whatever card it is, whether it is MasterCard or not, you really don't even probably notice, but that's something which we are trying to change where we want to create a poll from the consumer side for our plan, and that we are beginning to notice happening pretty nicely.

Ben Kaplan  24:21  

And what's interesting is that if you look at multisensory marketing, you look at experiential marketing, you have a third leg of your stool, which is very different. And that is sophisticated digital marketing, in particular micro trends, identifying them and responding to them with digital advertising that is AI driven in real time. I've heard you talk about this. Take us through what that means and how that sort of is the third leg of your stool, which is completely different than that amazing, priceless experience, but it's also relevant to this new disruptive way of marketing.

Raja Rajamannar  24:53  

The fundamental premise that we start off in our digital marketing is that if there is a cost conversation that is happening, and you present yourself in a fashion that is relevant to the ongoing conversation of that particular context, you will be more effective than just slapping out your advertisement out there. Irrespective or even not knowing what the conversation is with the conversation is on the Essent, meaning it's increasing, it's trending up, if you catch the wave with your communication at the time, you are actually getting better results than when it is trending down. So these are the two very basic principles that we have started with. So we created a complete AI based engine with literally 100% automation. So what this does is, firstly, it looks at all the chatter that's happening with the social media and the mainstream media. And then identifies here are the three trends, which are most likely to be trending in the next three days, because it's only for three days, we call them micro trend. So it starts goes up. And at the end of two, second day it starts dropping, third data is gone, and new micro trend has been taken over. So we try to ride each one of these micro trends. So AI predicts these micro trends, once we identify a trend, then we have a repository of offerings, products, services, messages, etc, that we created a library of it then tries to see the AI engine, what is the right thing that we can offer, whether it is an offer product message, whatever, to that particular conversation to be placed into that compensation in a relevant fashion. So there is a relevancy mapping, that happens. And once it decides this is the message, for example, that's what it decides to give up is the offer that it immediately creates in real time, a static advertisement, right or the static, hopefully, in future it will be video, but right now it creates a static ad. So this static ad is then put in the media. So the media buy happens automatically in real time. And when the responses start coming or not, the creative keeps getting modified, and there is a constant A B testing that happens. And all this is done by the AI. And then it optimizes it settles down on the optimized design for that particular static ad. And it goes with it. And in parallel. Now it starts tracking what is the overall response that we are getting, and starts measuring ROI. And by the end of the three days, you already have got your ROI established. And it's a constant process of improvement from there. So very straightforward. We call it the MasterCard, digital marketing engine. So it's end to end, what we were absolutely stunned by is that in the previous times, for example, in an optimized strategical campaign, we get x as the desired outcome. Here, what we are seeing is it's anywhere between 4x to 8x, depending on what kind of a campaign it is 4x to 8x, which is a huge efficiency building for us. So this is not what we are doing is to take it to our clients, which are the banks at the large merchants like the airlines and the tourism departments and so on and offering them this platform that they can use as a service.

Ben Kaplan  28:14  

Have you ever picked up a product and loved how it felt in your hand, that's the power of touch in marketing. By creating a hands on experience for your customers, you can create a memorable and engaging moment that stands out from the competition. Whether it's the texture of a product, or the feel of a premium material, the sense of touch can create a sensory experience that helps to communicate your brand's values and personality. MasterCard, once again, isn't afraid to get a little touchy feely.

What should be the training of a CMO? Now, if you want to be on the cutting edge? What are the skills you need? If what was relevant five years ago may not be so relevant as much in the future.

Raja Rajamannar  29:11  

You know, this is one of the things which unfortunately, is not getting enough attention within the marketing community. The world around us is changing so much and we are impacted by it directly. We have to invest time and effort to learn. At this stage and age. I spend five and a half hours approximately every single weekend trying to learn something new. Like for example, I have taken a course on AI I have done a course on blockchains. at Wharton. I'm trying to really do things both on it or Coursera. Or I'm reaching out to people taking sessions where they're teaching me I put myself in a humble position of hey, I'm a student teach me for example, what's the difference between what we call self learning versus artificial intelligence versus machine learning because I don't want to be sort of derailed by this jargon. I want to understand the cards appears clearly. And then malo are saying that, okay, are the companies using it? Can I use it in my context, and then try to evolve our own strategies. I think the single biggest thing, which CMOS will be doing themselves a big service, is by investing time and effort to genuinely learn. Because if you don't learn these things today, you will really become obsolete very quickly. And you know, many of the things for example, when chat GPT has been announced, and there is so much amount of excitement and euphoria and fear, depending on how you feel whether it is going to aid your job or take your job away, the fact of the matter is, I look at it as a fantastic tool, many of the tasks that you are probably relying on a significant system, or the bureaucracy or whatever the ecosystem is, you're not delegating it to a very efficient machine, which means you're thinking and be focused on higher order level activities, or strategies or thoughts or whatever it is. And then you should figure out in what ways can you leverage it. Now, I was actually surprised yesterday, I was meeting with a group of CMOS, and less than 50% of them have actually played with Chad GPT. Now, that's not good. Yeah, hearing about it in a news release is one thing, but then you want to get on hands on in place. So yesterday, then I said, Okay, why don't we all just try to get on and then try to play with it. But then the message came say that we are already at capacity right now, leave us your email, and we will get back to you and the capacity is there. Right? The point is, these are developing so rapidly, you have to stay at the cutting edge by learning by investing time and effort for that learning. And that I think is the single biggest thing that CMOS have to really think about.

Ben Kaplan  31:36  

I think one of the things that stands out about you as a CMO and in your tenure at CMOS MasterCard is how willing you are to experiment and to embrace experimentation. Some people can do that some companies are oriented towards that others any failure you might have when you experiment, and some people may be afraid of that, because that could threaten job security that could threaten if you're a public company, you know, predicted earnings, which are very significant. So as a CMO, as a marketer, how can more people embrace experimentation, but do it in a way that is still grounded in the real world?

Raja Rajamannar  32:15  

See, at the end of the day, if you're experimenting, you should expect a certain amount of failure, and you have to have a reading on what level of failure is acceptable in your company. Now, for example, in our case, I said 5% of everything that we do, and prepare to write off completely. So my total budget of $800 $5, I reserve for these kinds of experimentations. And I condition my See, my CFO and my C suite peers in advanced in array, this is an experiment, it may fail, they want to join, they want to contribute, I co op them very early on, so that it doesn't become that Roger has gone off with his Harebrained Schemes, and we have failed on something instead, it is our collective thing that we are doing. And plus everyone is mentally prepared that there could be a possibility that this might fail. So when it fails, it's not like all hell breaks loose, and then your job. Security is at risk. That's not how it works, right. So there is one part of it is identify a limited pool of money that you can effort to say that this I will diligently protect for experimentation. Number two, you need to have a clear experimental baseline and what the outcomes would be if it is successful, what will you do with it? If it is a failure? What will your learnings be with it, you need to have those parameters upfront. Then third, socialize it, make sure that you co opt your CEO CFO to be I find these are the two most critical forks that you need to have as your partners otherwise you'll be a lone wolf fighting in a strange land, you don't want to do that. And number four, encourage your team. Because at the end of the day, if the team feels that failure is not tolerated here, they will just start take the risk. Why would they take the risk when you tell them it's okay guys, and girls, let's go ahead and do it. And we then have sharing that success transfer or it is learning from failures. So we have got, for example, this regular webcasts, and there are periodic meetings, etc. You share these things, you document them so that you don't do the same experiment with the same result happening for the second time, then you have not learned anything, you're just wasted money. So you got to be thoughtful about that. So this is how I would go about it. And I have been so far in reasonably successful to be adhering within my tolerance limit as far as failure is concerned. But yes, we had our quarter failures, we have record of successes.

Ben Kaplan  34:35  

According to Roger roger Menara, CMO of MasterCard, marketing, at its best is the combination of left brain technology and data enablement and right brain emotional engagement. So harness the power of quantum marketing. That's the technology tsunami data, delusion and tectonic shifts in culture. What's the result? data and technology can help you create personalized zation that reflects the real time conversation and taps into all five senses to create experiences, not just advertisements. And like Raja, don't forget to set aside time to learn. And a great way to do that is to subscribe to this podcast. It's an incredible time to be a marketer, and the next golden age of marketing has only just begun. For top CMO, I'm Ben Kaplan.

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