TOP CMO: Michelle Taite, Intuit Mailchimp - 'Revolutionizing Retention'

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We'd like to think of ourselves almost as a lifestyle brand. We say that we want to aspire to be the Nike of SAS.

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This is the podcast where we go around the globe to interview marketing leaders from the world's biggest brands, fastest growing companies and most disruptive startups.

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This is TOP CMO.

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Jackson Carpenter  00:26

Today I'm speaking with Michelle Taite CMO of Intuit Mailchimp, one of the world's largest email marketing platforms,

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turning clusters into customers with Intuit Mailchimp, the number one email marketing and automation platform. Michelle

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Jackson Carpenter  00:40

has more than 25 years of experience in marketing, design and brand management. As a vice president Intuit, she previously oversaw marketing of QuickBooks, which focuses on providing small and medium businesses boost for bookkeeping and payroll. She also spent seven years at Unilever, where she climbed all the way to global senior brand manager for dove. on the cultural side. He's a board member at Filoli, a historic house and garden. He's also an advisor to the board at the Design Museum. Today, we are asking how can AI enable marketing departments to ideate quickly and multiply the effort of every team member and whines email marketing so effective when it comes to customer retention? Let's find out with Michelle Taite.

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Jackson Carpenter  01:32

Michelle Tate, thank you so much for joining us on the TOP CMO podcast. Thanks for having me. Now, it's hard to imagine that anyone listening to this is not going to already be familiar with Intuit Mailchimp, but gifts, the elevator pitch for Intuit Mailchimp. Yeah,

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Intuit Mailchimp as the number one email and marketing automation platform in the world. We serve millions of businesses with over half a billion email sent a day and SMS now also live. So

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Jackson Carpenter  01:58

as a marketer, when you're marketing Intuit Mailchimp, who's the who's the target audience? Is it primarily other marketers?

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02:05

It is it's the most fun job marketing to marketers, all the skeptics out there? And

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Jackson Carpenter  02:09

I'm curious, are there any unique challenges you fed up? You said marketing to the skeptics any unique challenges you've had in marketing to marketers? I don't know

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that they're unique challenges, but we're very customer obsessed. And so what we've learned over the years with marketers is they care about two things, primarily. One is they really care about the business. So show me the results, show me the ROI. So I'm your customer growth, right? I'm growing the business, how are you growing it faster for me. And then on the other side, they really love creativity. And that's where they spend a lot of their time both at work and outside of work. And so we try to cater to them on and off platform. According to those two and sort of show up naturally in those places.

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Jackson Carpenter  02:48

I'd love to hear a little bit about your approach to growing Intuit Mailchimp, what channels you've emphasized what you found that's worked really well. And what's definitely not worked. If there any failed experiments, We'd also love to hear about that

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trough what's worked is thinking about, we think about ourselves, not necessarily as a SAS brand. But we like to think of ourselves almost as a lifestyle brand. We say that we want to aspire to be the Nike of SAS, right? So high growth was a soul, we know who we are. And we talk to our customers or find our customers very naturally, both on and off platform. Like I said, what that means is that we provide inspiration, education in places like New York Fashion Week, or the Design Museum in London. And we can talk more about some of those activations. So we bring the brand to life and its effectiveness and meaningful interactions with our customers so that when they then come and find us on our website, or in with some of our tools, they have a meaningful connection with us. We've gotten back to the basics a little bit, I would say we are certainly using a lot of digital media. But we are a brand that really loves out of home for its simplicity, for its ability to create connection meaningfully, and very localized, personalized way we are a brand and a business that it's all about hyper personalization and connecting with your customers one to one meaningful way. So we tried to do that. And that's been really successful for us most recently in Australia. And you'll start seeing some of that also in the US in the next month. Well,

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Jackson Carpenter  04:26

I'd be interested in hearing this is a conversation we have a lot on the show, you know the tension between activities that are easily attributable kind of vary, that produce a lot of like easy to analyze data versus activities that maybe are more difficult to attribute more kind of brand activity and from what I'm hearing from you from Intuit Mailchimp, the brand marketing piece of the puzzle is really important. How do you think about making the business case for those types of activities internally.

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Yeah, other than out of home, which is an outlier, I would say, we start, we started to think about our top of funnel or brand activations very differently in the last couple of years, or almost three years, since we were acquired by Intuit. We really think about the primary KPI is first party data. So if you think about the work that we did at the London design museum, we activated an exhibit at the London design museum that was called email is dead, let me be very clear email is very much alive and kicking as the primary or first ROI channel have all channels with $32 on the dollar. But essentially, what we did there was we got really close to our customers. And we said, Okay, our customers care about creativity, and specifically love and London based marketers, frequent exhibits all the time on their weekends. And so we created an exhibit with the London design museum that talks about the cultural power of email. And it wasn't an immersive exhibit that was free, but had components that require you to give us your email. And in return for value and return for an experience at the exhibit, we collected 10s of 1000s of marketer emails through that experience. We taught them not only about the history of email, by the way, the Queen was the first head of state to send an email, but also about the business impact and the personal impact of email and also thought about the fact that email has been around for over 50 years, right? It's, it's seen hardware and software go back and forth. And, and turn around. And yet, it's still here and has adapted. We even let people who visited right there write themselves an email with an email capsule, which we send them back. We'll send them back a year later. And so all of this was created with first party data in mind. So going back to your question of how do we think about brand, we think about brand as first party data that then enables us to nurture or at least Garner insights about our customers. And so it's not just putting your brand out there for awareness. It's about having meaningful experiences with the people you're trying to connect with.

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Jackson Carpenter  07:10

Michelle, I love hearing you as CMO for Intuit Mailchimp be a strong advocate of the value and importance of email as a medium. And I'm curious what it is that you think marketers tend to misunderstand about email marketing? What is it that we as marketers could be doing better to take advantage of email as a as a channel?

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I think first and foremost, we as marketers, we're so wired to think about acquisition, when acquisition is 5x more expensive than retention reactivation. An email is a perfect tool to not only acquire customers, but actually to look at your current customer base or your past customer base and reactivate them, engage them educate them, when we ran some research around the world around purchase consideration and reasons for purchase. That what we found was that, you know, we as brand advocates love to think that 90%, or maybe 50% of our buyers are brand advocates, it's really 6%. Right, and people are making decisions based off of a lot more than their brown press brands about 42% will make a decision based off of consumer preference 41% will tell you they're making related to brand trust, an equivalent percentage will tell you that they're making it based off of promos. So think about that for a minute trust is equal to free shipping, right? And so, for me, it's around how do you create that secondary purchase? How do you and when you take a click down into that purchase cycle, what you learn is that you need to be part of a routine, to be part of your routine need to make really meaningful connections and what I call a repeat game. And so I think what marketers tend to overlook when email is, email is not only the number one opted into channel, right, we're not sending you messages that you didn't ask for. And it's a repeat game that customers continue to choose to play. And so there's an opportunity there to figure out how do you get into their routines? How do you enable them with additional value based off of the data that you have? Let's

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Jackson Carpenter  09:30

dig a bit deeper into adding value to emails because I do think that the long term sustainability for any particular company of email as a channel for them is going to come down to providing value with every single email you said you're never sending anything frivolous. And when you think about providing value with every email communication, do you have any specific examples of interesting things you've seen? They could be things that Intuit Mailchimp have done or things you've done in previous companies, or things you've seen other companies do, that you think really bring value to email as a medium, I

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kind of zoom out and say, to provide value you need to connect meaningfully. And what we've found is to connect meaningfully our three pillars. One is what we would call a soulful subjectivity, this idea that you need to bring yourself and fully into the email, whatever content it is that you're creating, right. And we often say we're a very bright yellow and a sea of blues and greens and B to be the way that who we are, and we stand for our values. And people can choose to connect or not based off of that, right. The second is sincere personalization, which I think is is going to what you're talking about, which is, in our mind, how do you utilize data in a way that is hyper personalized, so that it provides value. I saw this with Airbnb in a really great experience, where I was looking for I was looking for next Airbnb on the shore, I play piano, they showed me a house that had a piano with a view, I was sort of struck by the oh, I never thought about looking for a piano with a view. But when I started this with this home, they recognize and I stopped on this home for a while, the next time I had come into the app, they had offered me all the best pianos with a view across the world, right? That's a meaningful, sincere personalization. Similar to what we have created with the London Design Museum based off of the data and the consumer customer insight. And last is shared courage, have the courage to say something to do something that is different, that is meaningful, that will create community, because when you when you put yourself out there, with soulful subjectivity, you create that trust, when you create, create sincere personalization, that creates the value. And then really, what you want to do is create community. And if you and if you follow those three steps, that's what you think. That's when you can create really meaningful emails and the back and forth conversation, right? at Intuit Mailchimp,

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Jackson Carpenter  12:14

you have a award winning in house agency called way. Tell us a little bit about your decision to have a in house agency. And then what it is that makes week special.

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So I can't take the credit for having an in house agency when I took the role they were already forming. And we certainly made them larger over time. But for us, we discovered that Wink creative was our magic sauce. It's a group of about 40 to 50 individuals that truly believe that they can change the world of small and big businesses through creativity. And what I found in working with them was that because there was consistency of people have an understanding of the business of understanding of the customer challenge and true customer obsession. There was creativity that was built through trust between myself and the marketing team. And the agency that just created the most creative an out there, campaigns and executions will give you an example, our first campaign guess less. So more was really built off of this insight that marketers when they send a campaign, they're kind of like wondering, is this gonna, is this gonna deliver. And they sort of sit there and look at it for a while. And so that was the inspiration for guest les Anwar, which was a bunch of different, I would say quirky combinations like a cat bat, and owl cut that I should say. And you're trying to figure out what it was when we could help you figure out how to hyper personalize your messaging, how to drive the most effective marketing through our data, and our billions of connections through that data on our platform. The second was, you know, we went to we went to a competitor conference in Boston. And we decided that our as we go up market and speak to advance marketers, we should show up where they weren't going to already. And so we showed up at a competitor conference, we colored Boston yellow, to share that we were the number one email marketing automation platform in the world. We wrapped cats in in our coloring and also had videos running with both entertainment Milton presents and some of our content around our product feature functionality that had really progressed. So we had a really interactive conversation with them, and we took them for free for the hotel To the conference, it also rained during that conference. But people were standing in line to take our cap. So just thinking through, you know, what is that shared courage? And how do you bring that to life? With? And we did that in a few weeks, actually, that, to me is the power of just the creative nature of weighing.

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Jackson Carpenter  15:18

Well, you touched a bit on this, but I believe and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that you were already with Intuit when Mailchimp was acquired, and then you stepped into this leadership role after the acquisition, is that right? Correct. As a leader, how do you think about the stepping into a strong, successful existing team, and leading without without derailing what's already working? transparently,

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it's really scary. When you step into, especially for me, I'd watched this brand and business from afar, with deep inspiration, right, as a brand leader and a marketing leader for years. So thank you step into very carefully. For me, it's a combination of humility and curiosity, right humility, with the understanding that you don't know very much, you'll never know as much as the subject matter experts. And especially as you sort of continue to grow in your career in my career, but have the curiosity to learn, have curiosity to learn, even when you think that you know, a lot and I certainly made mistakes along the way. And, you know, I, we have a corny hashtag on our team called beat our best, and we use it with the work together. And the intent is really for us to just get better and better as we go along. But I think there's also a foundation of psychological safety that you as a leader need to create, that enables that creativity that enables that trust that enables, you know, through that humility, that curiosity and people to step up and start to help connect the dots and create something better today than yesterday. sure

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Jackson Carpenter  17:09

to put a finer point on it when you talk about, you know, the psychological safety. I think you said, that sounds as though what you mean by that is, although we're going through an acquisition, although there are a lot of changes, your job is safe, and you have a place where you can come every day to work where you can truly focus on the job. Is that what you mean? My

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work mantra is work hard, have fun, no drama, it's really hard to bring that to life, when you're from an acquiring company, coming to this magical brand, right? And no promises can be made ever at that level. And so just coming in being really, I think, vulnerable, right with what you know, what you don't how how you're going to lead where things are messy, where things will continue to be messy, and where things will get a little more organized. I remember saying to my team at the time, it feels like we're running many, many sprints, and we need to figure out how to run a marathon, even though like we need to run that marathon at that sprint pace, right? So how do we kind of build the processes and build some of the frameworks that allow us to do that without burning out without, without losing the magic of the brand of the business, that

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Jackson Carpenter  18:27

you came to Intuit Mailchimp, we touched a bit on this, but follow the great career of brands like QuickBooks, but also you deliver a new balance and even the Israeli intelligence force, can you tell us a little bit about those experiences and how they helped to shape your career as a marketer.

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18:44

So I come from a modest background. That it my experience at the intelligence force, got me really interested in product design, because product design, my mind creatively exploited constraints, and it created these new experiences. And, you know, I was signed up for law school in Israel. And I decided not to go with parents were livid. And, and it was because my father in law, you know, took me to an exhibit at a design school. And I looked at the work and I was just like, wow, people are actually creating something about that creativity about that innovation that really stunned me as something you could choose as your career. And so I went to London, I hold the British citizenship, my dad's British, and studied product design product and furniture and design there. And I think it was that what I now know is consumer insight, customer obsession, right, just thinking about different problems from the customer angle and how you could solve them without money without necessarily more space was what was intriguing to me. And so went on to design shoes at New Balance. There's something very different about Going to school as a designer, where you can essentially solve any problem you want to try and solve. And then you get to, you get to a company where you're actually producing, producing footwear in my case, and you recognize all that it takes to actually make something, right. And I was just hit by this amazing role of commercialization. And me being a very curious person, I spend a lot of time with the salespeople and marketers, and at some point, decided to move to what my design friends still call the dark side of marketing. And yeah, I think that that was sort of a great learning for me in terms of what it takes to bring something to market and then went to Unilever to get really classical marketing training, learned a ton about positioning, thing about taking very commoditized categories and bringing them to life. I keep thinking about my first rotation on Magnum ice cream, we launched Magnum ice cream, North America and thinking about essentially, an ice cream bar is Chanel on a stick, and being able to talk about it so eloquently, in such an such short words. So that took me to working on some additional brands at Unilever. I spent the last three years on bodywash there, I love working on a mission

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Jackson Carpenter  21:28

doesn't get much more commoditized than soap, right? I mean, that's, that is true commodity, right,

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true, but then look at a brand that's held and the number one physician for so many years, just as a result of, you know, not only brilliant formulation, but also brilliant marketing, right? That's really differentiated. And working out a brand was such a mission had a great impact on me. I felt like CPG wasn't moving very quickly and digitally at the time. And I really wanted to move to tech. And so made that shift to Intuit was humbled to be able to relaunch and reposition QuickBooks as it moves from accounting software to a suite of business tools and work in a variety of different offerings. So FinTech to payroll and benefits. And as we moved up market with our advanced products, and moving from self service to services to Yeah, so it's been a lot of fun.

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Jackson Carpenter  22:26

I'm excited to jump in a little bit to repositioning and relaunching QuickBooks. But before we do that, I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about the shift from selling physical products stuff, to to selling software and what the learning curve was like there, what maybe challenges you ran into and, and what kind of paradigm shifts had to happen in order to make that leap. You

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22:56

know, I think CPG is very, very good at positioning and understanding and positioning as a result of customer obsession like nobody else. But until it is extremely unique in that sense in the tech sector, and that we are so customer obsessed, we live and breathe our customers, we speak to customers every week, our product roadmaps aren't based off of our customers needs and we're just obsessing over their we're obsessing over their challenges and really trying to find big bold swings that will give them benefits, whether it's, you know, powering the prosperity of consumers on the tech side or on the small business side. And as we move up market with QuickBooks and Intuit Mailchimp, for me, that stayed constant to figuring out what the hardships of small business were, and how do you bring that to life? And how do you differentiate as a brand for QuickBooks? That that sort of was the was similar, I think what was different was that and what I enjoy so much about the last seven years, is just a depth of data, the ability to target and to target an action data, target customers and action data based off of their behaviors, their needs, you can see where they get stuck, you can see where they're utilizing, you know, they're very clear with you, even if they don't say anything, whether your product is great, or it's missing a feature or they're getting stuck in some form of way because you can see it in the data, you can see it in their actions. To me that behavioral based triggering and insights are really fun. It doesn't just end at that top of funnel or the first and second moment of truth as p&g would say, right? Because even if you think about dove, you know, I even have women journaling about their showers but you don't actually take that deeper, right and you can have focus groups but and In a product like QuickBooks or Intuit Mailchimp, when you're creating a campaign, we can see exactly where you're getting stuck, we can see what you're excited to activate, we can see how quickly you go through a funnel. So now

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Jackson Carpenter  25:15

that you find yourself on the other side of of that, divide that now that you're working in the world of software, if you were to give any advice to colleagues who are still in CPG, based on what you've learned so far, what what what advice would you give them that you think could move them forward?

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It's a really good question. So thinking about how to use data in a creative way, even if you don't own all of it, right? How do you use data around partnerships? How do you use your e Commerce Data? How are you, you might have lists from, you might have lead nurture lists, right? From communities that you're building. And so how to utilize that community data, even if you're not getting direct to customer data, to drive some of the behaviors or at least gain some of the insights, then propel your innovation. Let's

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Jackson Carpenter  26:10

dive a little bit deeper into your experience. repositioning QuickBooks, I'd love to hear about what gave rise to the need to reposition and relaunch. And then just tell us a little bit about what that actually looks like.

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26:24

Yeah, QuickBooks in and North America is the number one was an enrollment accounting software still is for small business and self employed. And we had launched a bunch of different tools for for small businesses to essentially have the one place for them to do business, right there one source of truth, whether it was banking, or benefits for their employees, or maybe if they didn't want to do it themselves. We had services with bookkeepers to do that to do live booking, bookkeeping and out taxes for them. And we went up market so that they could stay on the same platform and get the effectiveness of the platform for longer as they grew. And so all of a sudden, we had to share all of the components of the suite with them, and sort of moved from just accounting software to that suite of tools. But first and foremost, we had to take a step back and say, here's who we are, and who's and here's what we believe in. And so we did exactly that as we realize QuickBooks, across the world with makeing knew at the time, it was an interesting project, because coming into the company, and the company is so customer obsessed that there was a little bit of banks around hub there, you touched by brand. I know I know, these customers, and I know them so well. And honestly, this company knows its customer. So so well. They're meeting with them daily as they innovate, right. And so there was a little bit of let me gain the trust of Intuit and Intuit employees or QuickBooks employees, I should say, with the work that we're doing, in addition to the trust of our customers. And we did exactly that as we launch with backing you. And we showed small businesses that we understood that it was hard and unpredictable to be a small business, a small business, but also really rewarding when you got it. Right, right. And then the second year, what we saw in that first year was that everybody launched customer stories, they were very touching. And they were very effective and beautifully done. But the market was full of them, can be launched them Facebook, launch them a bunch of other competitors in the space. And in talking to small businesses, what we realized was that they need a little bit of humor. And it's interesting, because we're seeing that in the market right now, across b2b to across many categories, actually, if you look at can we recognize they made a little bit of pure where they didn't take everything so seriously. And so we went from you know, very, I would say him emotional work to a little bit of levity. And we brought in Danny DeVito, who did a bunch of ads for us and communication that really brought to life how easy it was to run on QuickBooks and run different components of your business from time tracking to, to banking to you know, accounting, but also payroll and payments with your with QuickBooks. So we went through an arc of different iterations that sort of brought that to life, and to QuickBooks to a little bit of less serious place with its customers. How

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Jackson Carpenter  29:54

do you go about building? You talked a bit about the attachment to the brand, but how do you go about it? building consensus across sometimes a pretty diverse and divided group of stakeholders. As a marketer, I think there are a lot of CMOs, who find themselves in a position where they have a vision for where the brand needs to go. But trying to get, you know, maybe their CEO, their CFO, all of their the kind of stakeholders on the same page, their own team, all on the same page with that movement isn't always easy. So how did you think about that with QuickBooks?

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30:32

With QuickBooks, it was very data backed in customer back. So we had an idea, we tested it, we shared it with customers, we got customer reactions to it, we optimize. And that's how our organization works. I will also say, some of this is about courage. And so once you get some trust within the system, you're able to do more courageous work, right? Like the Danny DeVito work that we did in the second year, or some of the work that we didn't, the following years. But I would say, Now, more than ever, I would, I would give advice to show versus tell, in working with Wayne Carr and house creative agency on our last campaign, the customer campaign. And so we put it in context, the customer is a ball of customers that are all treated the same. And we as Intuit Mailchimp have the ability to sort of sort through those and provide hyper personalization to create customers out of the customer. And so when Wenke shared the customer campaign with me, they showed versus told, and they utilized generative AI to show to create some of that imagery. And we were able to have a really quick conversation about what it was and when it wasn't, we push on the concept and gotten really narrow in terms of, Can you can you bring in the use case like an abandoned cart? Can you look at these different narrow use cases that we wanted to run? Would it work internationally. And so I think, and we were able to run really quickly through the production and the optimization through research to with AI on the customer campaign, because we were able to show versus tell them and optimize really quickly with AI. And so even when you have the customer was fully human generated and human produced at the end. And I would say the the top piece of feedback or advice they would have is show versus tell and be customer backed, that

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Jackson Carpenter  32:35

you touched a bit here on how wink was using AI in order to sort of ideate very quickly and in particular using it to produce images. And you've given one great example of how marketers can use AI in their workflows. I'm curious based on what you're seeing how else you think that marketers should be using AI in their workflow?

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32:57

Yeah, I mean, I think 18 months ago, we were talking about AI as an additional resource to the market and to the marketing team. So we were talking about if a marketer is to have to focus on one target out of five, now they can focus on all five and create all of the assets with the variety that they need, across all of the journeys that they're targeting, right, because AI can just create so quickly. And maybe it's not creating at 100% fidelity of what you need, but at least it gives you sort of that 60 80% get you there. But now I think AI is doing much more than that. And like I said, we used AI to not only generate some of the imagery that that helped us sort of get to our final concept, and also tests and iterate in between groups with the customer, we ran focus groups around the world. In the last 15 minutes between groups, we iterated on a concept based off of what the humans saw in threat human sensibility, and that we saw in the rooms and then optimize and that ultimately led to our top performing campaign of all time, the top 5% of suicides globally. But what gets me really excited about the use of AI for marketers now is really what we unveiled a few weeks ago for Intuit Mailchimp, this what we call revenue intelligence, but it's really a combination of predictive analytics and generative AI. So we think about the marketer and the marketers biggest need is to continuously drive growth faster than they drove growth yesterday, right. And that requires a lot of creativity and creates a lot of angst. And when you think about the world today, it is full of data. It really is if you're using the right systems, but the problem isn't that you don't have data it's that you can't crunch the data as quickly as you need to to be really to be able to to act on it. And even if you couldn't, like, do you have the capabilities to think through it. And so what we're doing is we're taking all of the data across the Intuit platform in Intuit Mailchimp, and we're contacts Intuit creates the Create about 65 billion machine learning in AI predictions a day on our platform, that creates about a 500,000 attributes for the businesses we serve than 60,000 for the consumers. So what we're doing in the background is saying we're matching that with all the Intuit Mailchimp data and saying, We believe that these customers are ready to buy faster than you would have expected. Because we've looked at the journey, we've looked at the market data we've looked at, we've looked at some of the components in market of what's selling and what could sell. And for any marketer that comes onto our platform, we say here are three revenue opportunities for you, based off of the data that we that we analyze, in real time. And then not only are we doing that, we're actually creating the assets and the journeys, the campaigns to run. And so, and we do that based off of scraping your website, your past campaigns, your brand kit that we create for you. And maybe we as marketers, we want control. So maybe that's not 100%, ready to go, maybe you want to tweak it and which you have the opportunity to do that actually, then is much, much better than what you would have walked into on a Monday morning regardless, right? And so we're constantly giving you that analyst at your side, and that creator to do all the work for you. It

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Jackson Carpenter  36:38

makes perfect sense. And I'm curious, sort of aside from Ai, what are the other kind of important trends in marketing that you think might be overlooked right now, it's

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36:48

gonna sound cheesy, but I think simplicity, I really as the more we do out of home, the more I recognize just the power of basics, right, the power of having a really stellar value prop, the power of having consistency, I recently was looking at some of the work from KitKat. And it's like, it's one of my favorite brands of all time, and they haven't changed a ton. They've changed with the times they've been culturally relevant. They've been really consistent and really sharp about who they are and what they do.

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Jackson Carpenter  37:25

I love that on a recent episode, I had another CMO, answer this question by saying direct mail. Direct mail was like, an overlooked channel that we all needed to be tapping into. And it it, it warms my heart a little bit to be hearing people talk about it, you know, out of home, to be hearing people talking about direct mail, and to hear that there's a a world and an audience and appetite again, for you know, channels that aren't aren't strictly speaking digital. Right. And I think that's, that's fantastic.

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37:57

Can I Sorry, can I just interject? i For me, it's less about the channel because I think that would be as true in terms of simplicity for email as it would be for out of home. For me, it's about connection, my mind connection drives emotion that drives action. And, and a lot of what brands have been doing in the last few years sort of reasoning, and I think reasoning drives conclusion. And if you think about really driving connection, you just get to different outcomes.

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Jackson Carpenter  38:27

You have that makes sense. And I like that idea of the tension between between reasoning and connection. That's, that's helpful. Michelle, would you like to do a lightning round? Move that okay, right on? What's the most important trait a CMO needs to have curiosity? What career advice do you have for aspiring CMOs? If in doubt, connect if you could mark it for any brand other than Intuit Mailchimp, which would it be? KitKat what's your favorite marketing book?

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38:59

Oh, it's Pixar Storytelling.

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Jackson Carpenter  39:02

Where outside of marketing D look for inspiration.

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39:05

I sing.

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Jackson Carpenter  39:06

What is your favorite campaign of all time?

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39:09

I think it's the cat brief gorilla.

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Jackson Carpenter  39:11

What is your favorite musician? Or Music Group?

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39:15

Oh, so cheesy. James Taylor.

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Jackson Carpenter  39:17

Is there anything we didn't discuss that we should have?

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39:19

I guess that Okay,

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Jackson Carpenter  39:21

fantastic. Michelle Taite, thank you so much for joining us on the TOP CMO podcast.

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39:26

Thanks for having me.

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39:31

This amazing episode was brought to you by TOP Thought Leader don't forget to rate review and subscribe.

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