TOP CMO: Kiran Smith, Butcherbox- 'From Gadgets to Gourmet'

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  00:00

Customers can read through someone reading off a script. What we're found on the affiliate space is authenticity is everything.

‍

Ben Kaplan  00:07

This is the podcast where we go around the globe to interview marketing leaders from the world's biggest brands, fastest growing companies and most disruptive startups. CMO This is TOP CMO with me, Ben Kaplan. today I'm chatting with Kiran Smith CMO at Butcherbox. A subscription based trailblazer in the food industry that delivers high quality grass fed and organic meats directly to customers doors.

‍

00:41

It's time to fix dinner Butcherbox.

‍

Ben Kaplan  00:44

Kiran was formerly CMO at iRobot, the company responsible for the Roomba automatic vacuum cleaners. And as CEO of Arnold worldwide, the advertising agency operating under Global ad giant, Havas. She's also held senior marketing positions at Brookstone known for airport retail and Stride Rite, the Children's footwear retailer. In each of these roles, Kiran has showcased an ability to drive growth, create marketing strategies and build robust customer relationships. So how did Kiran navigate these diverse industries? And what insights can she offer from her experiences? What strategies that she employ a Butcherbox to grow the brand and connect with consumers? Let's find out with Kiran Smith. Kiran, one thing that's interesting about Butcherbox, it's just so people understand about eight year old company does about $500 million in revenue delivering sort of curated boxes of you know, high quality meats to customers. And I know, early on, a lot of business was generated through affiliate marketing. So take us through how affiliate marketing became such an important channel. And what that kind of early story was like before you became CMO.

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  01:56

So it's one of the most fascinating stories I've heard because our CEO and founder Mike Salgueiro did not start off with the intent of making Butcherbox what it is today, he started with $20,000 Just come off a company that had not succeeded. And he was figuring out what he was going to do next. In the meantime, his wife had an autoimmune syndrome. And he was looking for reliable quality meat and eight years ago that was not readily available. And as he started searching for it, he realized that there was a real business opportunity there. But again, wasn't planning on it being what it is now. So when he did the initial Kickstarter campaign, right with that, and was very, very successful. What he found was that it was a situation of the right place at the right time, there's more people looking for high quality, reliable resource me. And what he found was that there were diets like the whole 360 keto, all of those that were out there right now that people were interested in finding good sources. And so what he did, and what I think was allowing him from day one to be profitable in this business, which, as you know, in startups is not common, is that he the majority of his focus on the marketing side was on affiliate marketing. So finding those influencers, who were very much into eating well, and eat, knowing where their food came from, and working with them to create relationships where we were putting their recipes in our boxes. And if they wanted to talk about us and give share code, we then they were able to also then earn commission on their side. And what that allows you to do is that you have the the the visibility with having being in the right spheres of influence with some of these affiliates, but you're not paying them in advance, you're paying post purchase. And for that that profitability model really works. And we, you know, we hit a nerve, we were, we're finding ourselves with the right partners. And it was a really important time for us at the beginning of our business, to help us grow rapidly, to help us grow with the with an authenticity that was there and a real consumer interest that we were meeting. So I mean, it continues to be an important part of our marketing mix today. You've

‍

Ben Kaplan  04:08

been CMO since 2022. How has the affiliate marketing grown like and for those maybe other CMOS listening saying that like, hey, this sounds interesting, I don't place a huge emphasis on affiliate marketing some types of businesses do that tended to be like kind of like digital online businesses that were sort of born in that, but give a sense of the scale and the scope, like how many affiliates were talking about how much revenue is passed in a sense of the cut people make? And is it all still post paid? Or is there any thing done upfront to get more people in and sort of bring them in as affiliates? It's a mix, I

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  04:43

would say it's the whole affiliate market world itself has evolved a lot in the last eight years and our understanding and our use of it has also evolved. I think I would say some of the lessons that we've learned as in terms of what is the right type of affiliate for us as you Go through your tendency to like, the more the better. But in order to have a very effective affiliate marketing program, you have to nurture it, you have to invest in it, you have to, you have to continue evaluate it and say, Is it working? Is this partner continuing to be the right partner for us is this Are we still the right fit for them in terms of what their focus area has evolved to? The other part of it is making sure that that we're keeping them up to date on where we're heading, what we're offering, what you know, the ways that we're positioning ourselves in the market. So it requires the constant nurturing. And I think that's something that we also had to learn as it grew pretty fast. How much of our mix is very different today than it was from when we started, and from our total marketing budget, it was at the beginning stages about 75 80% of our mix, it's closer to 30. But it is by far the biggest percentage of my mix I've had here at butcherbox. Because that affiliate market for us is still a very important part of how we show up into into consumers, both existing customers and potential ones in their sphere of influence, because it's not that they're just hearing about butcherbox, through Facebook, or through Instagram, they're also hearing it through podcasts through affiliate partners. And that and being able to have that process mix, I think for us really helps them see how we could fit into their day to day lives. What

‍

Ben Kaplan  06:23

is the lesson for someone starting the South? I mean, you've highlighted a few, just general principles that, hey, it's a relationship, there has to be communication, that maybe more pure quantity isn't always better. But for someone new to this, and saying that like hey, you know, this sounds appealing this idea of people who are sending in business, who you pay on the backend, not the front end, and you're happy to pay them all day long, because of how the economics work for you. What is your advice on on how to start or how to double down in that kind of program? How should someone begin where it's a small percentage of their mix, or they don't even do it, and they want to get started, my

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  07:03

advice is not to go immediately with the agency to be like, Okay, this is the right agency for us. My advice is first to start to talk to folks who are in your network, and you're doing it well. And asking them in terms of how they built it out for themselves and what type of talent they found, whether it's a contractor who comes in, evaluates your current business, and then kind of helps you identify that roadmap to start building, building that affiliate program. And then as it grows, then you could start looking at in house capabilities versus agency support. But my my, my personal preference, in terms of building it out, is really by having someone who's done it before who's built those capabilities before and having them come and help you build it for yourselves that feels very right and true to the brand. I would say the other part of it is be careful on what your expectations are some some CMOS want may want a lot of control of the messaging that goes out about their brand about their product. And what we're found on the affiliate space is authenticity is everything I can give you bullets I can give you a rough idea of our brand and who we are but unless that affiliate is really talking about it from their own voice and their own beliefs or that that is the only way it works for both sides. Because customers can read through someone reading off a script versus someone who's really speaking about a personal passion or a personal like love that they have for a brand and what we're really looking for are those right partners that can speak with that voice and what that their own personal experiences and conveying that that usually works best for us and that often means it's not the big big players it's more of the medium size affiliates that we have the best of luck with

‍

Ben Kaplan  08:48

and what is the difference in your opinion between affiliate marketing and influencer marketing is it just the focus on there's going to be a cut of revenue and but some influencers are working like that now to is it just the the emphasis on commerce is what makes it different? Affiliate marketing almost came into being kind of like the phase before influencer marketing really came into being is it just two sides of the same coin? It just depends if you're driving really like commerce or more general brand doors, how do you differentiate the two

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  09:18

so unfortunate that not fortunate? Unfortunate, I use them more interchangeably now than I ever have before when starting off affiliates had a business plan, right? They were they were operating as a company and they had they had revenue targets at commission targets versus influencers at the initial stage were much more looking to talk and to share and and those two worlds have definitely converged because influencers are acting much more like business people right in terms of and not all of them but many more of them. The bigger players are and affiliates are acting more like influences in terms of the content that they're creating, being much More but but feeling much more authentic feeling much more about them and not about the business, which

‍

Ben Kaplan  10:06

seems to mirror trends, right? It's like a sort of everyone became a content publisher, because you just had to become a content publisher to be relevant to have an audience to have eyeballs to be a thought leader, sort of you had, you had to do that. So if you're real, like money driven or commerce driven, or affiliate driven, you sort of had to become that you're saying, at the same time, if you were producing a lot of content, and you do have an audience, and you do have that relevance, the natural progression is, well, well, how do I make more from this? How do I monetize that? How do I have different streams, and you go there, and so it kind of converges in the middle, and both directions come together? And it makes it I think, exciting, but it also makes it confusing for a lot of people like how do we engage with this person? Is this a transaction that we're engaging in? Where essentially, it's just, you know, an ad with a creative payment structure? Or is this partnership working together? Or are you a brand ambassador for me? Or is it some other structure? How do you sort of tell what is the optimal structure for not the hundreds of maybe people you have in your network, but like, the 10, that really matter that drive getting most of your, that type of business for you?

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  11:14

Well, I think we learned that lesson, as we've evolved, I think as we grew rapidly, especially during COVID, what we found is that if you take your eye off the ball, it is really easy to just try to let things ride with and not and not assume that like or just assume that everyone's operating the same way that they always have. And I think what we really had to start doubling down on is it requires nurturing, it requires contact, because this is a relationship, the ones that work well. The the influential affiliates that work best for us are the ones that really feel like they're in a relationship with us, and that we feel like we're in a relationship. But then, and those are the ones that will find that we need to make sure that we're having that regular point, those regular points of contact, that we're providing them with the latest information about us if we're trying something making sure they get to try it, if we're introducing new products, how can we get those products in their hands as part of being in a relationship with us? And if they choose to talk them out? If they do, but if they don't, it's still part about being part of our network, and we have to treat them as such. It works best for all of us that they work that way. But you can't do that with everybody. So what we look at is efficiency, right? Where are those? Who are we getting the most like the best qualified audiences from people who are signing up for our programs, staying with our program, and being able to use the data to help in our evaluation of those partners? Do

‍

Ben Kaplan  12:38

you said 30% of your mix? Now? is affiliate marketing at one time for the company was 75 or 80%? Which makes sense because you have smaller marketing budgets, you know, paying on the back end easier than paying on the front end? What's the what's what's the other 70%? Now what's important to you, and how do you think about

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  12:54

it, it's exactly where you'd expect it to be. It's Facebook, its Instagram, its display its search, it's, you know, it's all it's all the traditional mix, not as much on the broadcast side of it. We're not that you know, with that, but we are, you know, we are doing streaming, we do linear like so we are in most of the more traditional channels that you'd expect us to be for the rest of our mix.

‍

Tom Cain  13:16

Welcome to TOP Thought Leader, we're a multimedia content studio, turning your ideas into engaging podcasts, videos, articles, and social posts. The CMO role as well and more challenging roles, there's a lot to be said for clear communication guide people through the experience, whether you're a brand, organization or individual launching your platform with us means having a dedicated team working tirelessly to accelerate your journey to thought leadership with TOP Thought Leader, we shape narratives and magnify voices and build legacies, find a deeper true bring the soul of a company to life with us. You're not just another voice in the crowd. You're the thought leader the world needs to hear. Welcome to TOP Thought Leader.

‍

Ben Kaplan  13:59

Kiran, you have an interesting background. And just to kind of hit some highlights here. I mean, some of the industries you've touched goes from grocery you're in for 10 years to kid shoes to airport retailing to robots to running an ad agency. Some of the companies that correspond to that include your you know, your CMO and iRobot. Which think makes the robotic vacuums that sort of people no go around and clean up. You were CMO at Brookstone, which is a brand a lot of people know spans I think airport retail and also maybe traditionally a catalog business. You were vice president marketing at at stride right? And you had a lot of senior marketing positions at a number of sort of supermarkets and groceries as well. What do you take from each one for each of those industries or each of those jobs? Maybe we start with like iRobot what how does iRobot help you sell meat now?

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  14:58

I think it using eyebrow As an example, when I left the agency and came iRobot, the iRobot experience really gave me that really big burst for rating internationally. Right? It was, if you look, it was a two plus billion dollar business that was across across the world and that experience, but I wasn't starting at Ground Zero. When I got iRobot, I had a fair amount of experience, whether it's from, you know, Brookstone, which at our international doses was mostly licensed, versus now running it ourselves. But I did have that exposure, what I found, for each of the career moves I've made in that I wasn't starting at zero, I was probably starting at 80. And my job was the, the new job was to learn that last 20% of it and apply my old learnings if

‍

Ben Kaplan  15:42

you're coming into, you know, like, home electronics for I guess, for AI robot, you don't have experience in that, but you didn't feel like you're coming in at zero, it was it was that the base was was useful, and you had to just like, kind of maybe get that last 20%. And in fact, was it just that you had a good base? Or can you ever cross apply lessons that, you know, you might not realize if you had been just like a consumer electronics person your entire career? Do you pull something in? And is there an example something that like, you know, you never would have never thought of or pursued? You know, if you hadn't had the grocery background? For instance?

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  16:20

It's a great question. I would say for like, using groceries and example, after being in 10 years of grocery. And now saying like, Okay, do I can I do kit shoes? Should I do kit shoes? Am I besides having three girls myself, Am I qualified to do like to sell good shoes, I did have a focus group that was helpful. But it was like, that was the first time I learned in terms of like when you take that leap, that you can be offering value from day one, because you're offering a rich experience from your past, like use date news, grocery to kid shoes, both are very data rich environments, both have retail presence, both had loyalty programs that were very important to the customer offering. I didn't have to learn about I didn't learn about how we brought that to light for stride. Right, but I didn't have to learn what they were. And so really, the nuance then became FreeStride, right? For example of like, now I need to learn about the wholesale business, how you bring your life, your brand, to life through others through a Nordstrom or Dillards, or Macy's like, that was the learning, okay, like I can figure that out, but was able to, like show value from the beginning in terms of being my old experience to the next and not being afraid to be okay with that. And to be and to know, saying like, Okay, this is what my old experience taught me, how can we apply some of that here, and that's quite like, bring it full circle with butcherbox, we're at the very beginning of our marketing journey. And as a CMO, there's no more exciting place to be than at the beginning of a journey, especially when you know that the next What's Up next are things that work, segmentation, personalization, CRM, all of those things are playbooks that have been played, and we're, we're gonna go play them. And that's great. You feel

‍

Ben Kaplan  17:57

like a lot of like, things that you could be doing things that you should be doing that are just pointed this or untapped. And you've seen that before, you know, it can work and you've seen it as a driver of other types of businesses, you're like, man, if we add this to the mix, and get this going, as it should we know that there's there's growth to be be had there from doing them crap, you can go down. And that's what makes the job so exciting. And how does that contrast with like, when you were CMO at Brookstone? My understanding was, it's a it's a brand that's well known legacy brand, maybe needs to be refreshed, rethought about thought of in a new way? Did you take any lessons from that? Or how is that sort of refreshing process versus kind of blue sky process on something that isn't built out? Do they parallel? How are they similar? How are they different?

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  18:45

I think what the what that experience taught me was how important data is it when you work in the data rich environment, which I'm in right now, how you think about customer segmentation, how you think about channel performance, how you think about marketing mix, those are all doable. When you're not in a data rich environment, you're operating blind, and you what you're trying to get, and you're not having any guess what we shouldn't do. Next thing, you having to assume that this is the performance. And that's not a great place, especially with the roles that CMOS play today, which is different than what it was 2030 years ago. It's it is a very data driven role. And so you are using data to make investment decisions in terms of where you're putting your marketing dollars, what are you getting for CPAs? What are you doing, what's your LTV look like? Then how we're operating now in what do you don't have the data to basically drive the strategy? It's it was really challenging.

‍

Ben Kaplan  19:42

How does I want to talk about one experience in particular that we haven't touched upon? Your CEO? Arnold worldwide. Arnold is a is a well known ad agency. In fact, us at top we've often been on joint agency councils and have had clients together. I think I remember our team worked with us Arnold on I think the milk bone accounts and we were we were doing things I remember meeting a lot of people there. And you were CEO, what did that experience of being CEO? What was it like for now? So it was it was really, you know, a career market or a career CMO. But you have that experience? Did it give you more empathy for CEOs? Are you now a better CEO whisperer now? What what did it teach you that maybe you would have some first hand experience that you could convey to other CMOS listening about, you know, from having that CEO role and the differences in the similarities? I

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  20:36

would say, it definitely gave me more empathy for, for CEOs and I had prior it is when you're in that role, and when you are making those decisions, when you're guiding, guiding those shifts, how you think about, you know, what your day to day looks like how you think about what your leadership style look like, it's a very different lens, than if you're working for a CEO. So it definitely gave me more empathy. I think it also gave me much more of an appreciation of the importance of who you surround yourself with, and how you buy a true strong leadership team can make all the difference from success to failure. And, and it from and from even the fulfillment of the day to day like that, that was another lesson I would say was very important to me, I will say probably one of the most, the biggest learnings I have is I will never have an agency relationship. Now, the way that I used to maybe have agency relationships, how I think about the role that an agency plays with us today, how I think about how you set up agreements with agencies, how you think about what teams you, when you when you bring on an agency, what teams you hire, as part of your team and how you interact with them. I had said had such a different perspective coming out

‍

Ben Kaplan  21:49

of that they just what's the if you were gonna steal one thing, what is the biggest difference like before and after how you would work with an agency now versus before? What's the difference that

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  21:58

they are incentivized by the same metrics that I'm incentivized by that they have stake, that they have skin in the game, that if I hit my numbers, they benefit. And if I don't hit my numbers, they it's not to their benefit either. Right? So that we're they're looking at the same metrics on looking at day to day. And that, you know, the way that we set up the agreements are basically like joint agreements, between report on performance,

‍

Ben Kaplan  22:23

I say that you guys are, are have a joint stake in success. And, and that's going to help motivate the agency better Correct. Match your motivation, I would be motivated by, by by by agencies, that would be more structured, very, very different, cuz we were focused a lot on growth. But typically, agency business has been, hey, if you could like keep your clients happy, don't lose your clients. But Bill as many hours as you could, you know, then you'd be you would be fine by that. So which isn't usually, if you're in startup or growth mode, usually you're like, Okay, I don't want to, you know, as many hours as I can, I want to shorten all those hours, because I'm trying to make my growth look like a hockey stick. So if there's a way that I can get the same result, but in, you know, 10% of the hours it would take to get there, I'm gonna go to that. But agencies typically were not structured to do that. They don't want you to be unhappy as a client, but they just, you know, they're not incentivized to shorten the x axis the time to do that, which as a performance marketer, you really are.

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  23:25

And I think one of the interesting things that we found is the conversations have changed when between us and our agencies when the first thing you're talking about is like, Okay, how are signups yesterday? Okay, how was churn there by having that those metrics that are not necessarily tied directly today, but they are, what the agency does is very important to those numbers. Great, then let's start off with that.

‍

23:47

If you enjoy this show, you'll love top of SEO. Top SEO

‍

Ben Kaplan  23:53

is a business school case study telling the story behind the story and what you can learn from it from those who have faced the fire and come out the other side. That was the challenge the team was faced 25%

‍

24:06

of it was gone. I found myself $282,000 in debt, how

‍

Tom Cain  24:10

would you navigate through these trials and transform them into opportunities for growth and success? How

‍

Ben Kaplan  24:14

do you build back up the business and get out of debt and

‍

24:18

get anything in nobody can come to work right in any of our factory in any of the factories.

‍

24:26

This is TOP CEO available wherever you get your podcasts.

‍

Ben Kaplan  24:35

Kiran, what do you advise others? What's interesting about your background, and we were you know, chatting previously about it doesn't seem like grocery and send kids shoes and airport retailing and robots was part of a master plan. And you in fact said no, it was not part of my master plan of total CMO domination. But what's interesting is that you know those roles as you might expect Fact, maybe from someone has a lot of experiences and really senior roles came a lot from Headhunters, recruiters, search consultants who are finding you, suggesting you for certain roles, and maybe you weren't the most obvious choice if you were going just by industry, right, who's in this industry?

‍

Ben Kaplan  25:19

But you obviously did well in interviews, and did well in the roles and all those sorts of things. So what is your advice for others in terms of like, career advancement

‍

Ben Kaplan  25:26

in marketing senior roles? Do you embrace headhunters? Do you not? Do you how much of this you know, do you think added a lot to your credit? Did you have lots of headhunters who did not add much value? How do you just approach the whole thing? What is your advice?

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  25:43

I would say, after getting the role at stride rate, which is was through a friend who was working at collective brands, and throwing my resume to mix every role I've had since has come through a search consultancy. So I have sand lump them all. No. And but I would say it was one of the lessons that someone had taught me when I after I'd left stride right and was looking for the next role. He said to me that part of at this at this stage of your career, where you are, most of these roles aren't going to be publicly posted. And if they are, they're going to be inundated. And it's gonna be really easy to get lost in the mix. So you need to be more proactive in creating relationships with some of these search consultancies, let me help you. And what he did was he made the introduction, he's like, he would send an email to say, someone from Russell Reynolds and say, hey, I want you to meet Kiran Smith, she's starting to look for the next thing, I think you guys would have a great chance to connect. And that's what started it. And that's what I say to anyone who is starting to look for what's next or seeing what's out there. I make introductions of for people in my in my network to some of these search consultants all the time, because it's a win win for both. It's a win for the person who's looking to network, now you're in the figurative Rolodex. And it's a win for the search consultancy because they're looking for highly qualified candidates that they can put on a slate that they present their clients. And so I personally find it that if you have a handful of search consultancies that you've had good relationships with, that you believe treat their people right that they have a good client list. It's that's one of the most important relationships that you could nurture as you continue to grow in your career.

‍

Ben Kaplan  27:20

And what is the role of relationships overall, so that we've talked about search consultancies? But how much and you talked about some of your kind of maybe key roles early on being through relationships? How do you go about building relationships? nurturing relationships? How much of it is, you know, with with a specific strategy in mind, how much of it is organic things that happen just sort of being a person being human? How do you think about it,

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  27:45

I have somebody who is pretty vocal about not being a very big believer of formal mentorship programs. I believe mentorship comes from chemistry, you meet someone and you feel like there's something that you can learn from them. And there's something that they can learn from you. And that's where true mentorship relationships come from. You can't force it, it's not based upon checkboxes of interest on a, you know, on a piece of paper. And I would say the it's one of the topics I'm probably most passionate about, as I talked about the importance of your squad, or your network as you talk about who you surround yourself with, especially as you progress in your career. I

‍

Ben Kaplan  28:20

feel like the squad now. I mean, it was a term but I feel like Taylor Swift has taken the term to another level because like, suddenly, it's like a thing, like you learn Swift squad and you see this, like, you know, I guess I'm a sports fan. I'm a music fan. And suddenly, you see, I guess in the news recently, it's like, oh, Brittany mahomes, the wife of Patrick mahomes, the kids, she's been added to the squad. So like, what the squad concept? I think, I think I really feel like Taylor Swift popularized this to a whole other level,

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  28:51

I have to say for I'm a mom of three girls, my squad was critical as when they were young, when we were all trying to all continue to have careers, grow in our careers, manage a family, all of those things, the people that you surround with that surround yourself with were critical in terms of when you're when you felt like a bad mom or a bad parent, they're like, You got this, let me tell you how I was worse. And then and then when their time is when you have maybe a little league and your egos a little inflated, they bring you back down to earth. They know you they know who you are, they'll show up when you need them. That's not just professionally, that's personally and being able to think oh, the reason I've had the success that I've had in my careers I've been fortunate enough to surround myself with people who had had been there along the way and know me for who I am and know when I need them. But also know that I'll be the first one in line when they need me and that goes back to the investment. You make it go back to Taylor Swift parties, like there's a reason she goes out to dinner with that group. There's a reason that she hosts in Rhode Island or whatever, because it requires investment and typically what happens is that you prioritize them last or you can find her Just Outlast. And then, because you're focused on work, or you're focused on your family, and it's one of those things that you have, and I believe that you have to really make a priority in order for it to continue to grow, and then develop.

‍

Ben Kaplan  30:14

Well, and I think one of those ways, just in my opinion, I have a, I have two girls I have, it's her birthday today. So there's just three years old. And I have another one and a half year old. And what I've personalized and I don't know if you agree, since you're a mom also, but it's like, especially with young kids, it's a different demand on time. And it's a different focus of I'm hanging out with different people. And it's more oriented around the school, but all of the relationships of the network, like maybe the pockets of groups, like I might, it might change over my life, and based on what happens happening in my life. But it all kind of enriches and grows in ways that are sort of unexpected, and serendipitous and exciting. And I'm hanging out with more parents of young kids and people around the school and neighborhood parks than I ever have before. And maybe different than formal conferences, I used to speak at more so and other things. But that kind of adds to all the enrichment. So I think you just kind of like, embrace it, and know that the source of these relations may change over time, and may change for personal or professional reasons. But it all kind of enriches you in unexpected ways. If you value it, and maybe just the source, you know, might change over time. And that's okay.

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  31:23

Right. And I think the only other part is, at some point, it's choice points, because you can't, it's not like you have limitless amount of time to invest in those. So that's some points, you have to start choosing in terms of where you are with which groups are you spending time with which you know, which, and where are you not, and that and part of that is little invol. As they grow older, and they as they start creating their own friends. And you're not necessarily friends with the parents like it's a real it's, I'm on the other side of it, where my kids are older. They're the three girls once sophomore in college and the average of sophomores in high school. So it's been fascinating to watch kind of how that's evolved in our friendships have evolved, coming out of that.

‍

Ben Kaplan  32:01

Well, the final thing I want to maybe ask you about, we've had a kind of a far reaching conversation, and we started with affiliate marketing, we went into how to, you know, in the middle there, which affiliate marketing course all about incentives. We went into agencies, you talked about aligning a sentence with agencies, we talked about relationships and the importance of that, too. My final question for you, just in summing all of that up is, is what is the best way whether it's affiliate, affiliate marketing or otherwise, to incentivize people? Should you? Like just butcherbox be like, Okay, we want to have, you know, we want to pay you more is incentivize through that and we want to, and it's better to pay someone more rather than less, because get them more excited more skin in the game? Is it not about the payment? Is it about the relationship? Is it about access? Is it about other things? Is it about, you know, having progress, like, what is it like, like, how do you incentivize people? And what is the optimal way? Is it always like, yeah, if I can pay less great, because I'm gonna have a bigger profit is I can pay more great because people are more excited. How do you think about the whole thing about incentives? I think

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  33:12

it has to start with why I chose this role. And it was, I was looking and I and I did a networking call with our CEO, it's my boss now. And after an hour of talking to him, I'm in like, I'm 100% in because when he in that hour told me about why he started Butcherbox, what the belief system of what the company is, and what they're what we're trying to build towards. It was amazing. And it was very much aligned with my own personal belief system and my background, and what I believe is important in terms of mealtime and food and where it comes from, and the ecosystem of it. That's where the incentive comes from, I'm not going to go chase someone, because they, they should like me, I'm going to basically say, This is who we are, this is what we believe in. And this is what we're growing towards. And I hope you want to be part of that. And here's what it's like to be part of that. And I think for us, for me, the superpower we have as many companies say they're mission driven. This is the first truly mission driven company I've ever worked for. And there's a strength in that. And there's a strength in terms of the type of members we attract. There's a strength in the type of partners we attract, because I'm not trying to be everybody to everybody. We are who we are. And we are confident in what we offer. We're really proud of what we offer. We're proud of our employee base. And I think with that comes a strength that people see and that authenticity that people see that attracts them to us and for them to want to be a part of it. 

‍

Ben Kaplan  34:42

It's a pretty cool superpower, Kiran Smith, CMO at Butcherbox and also an eclectic experiences of companies that you draw upon and use now and into the future. So best thanks for joining us on TOP CMO and best wishes for continued success. 

‍

Kiran Smith - Butcherbox  34:57

Thank you for having me.

‍

Tom Cain  35:03

This amazing episode was brought to you by TOP Thought Leader don't forget to rate review and subscribe

‍