Ben Kaplan 1:01
Have a question? Great. Well, Joe Cohen, CMO of CMO and Chief Communications Officer of Axis, welcome to Top CMO. I want to maybe start off by talking about a moment where it's, there's a few sometimes in the life of business in the marketing of business, there's these transformative moments. One of them comes because the pandemic comes, you're a large insurance and research insurance company. You're a traditional marketer that does business with in person meetings, events, relationships, and suddenly, things kind of get turned upside down. So take me back to kind of the moment where, how do you figure out what you're doing now when you have this outside Black Swan disruption, and your goal is to maximise your marketing impact?
Joe Cohen 1:55
Yeah, so Ben, it was it was a massive transformative moment. And what was interesting was, I had been with a company three and a half years at that point, but I was the CMO for all of two or three months. And what we had to do is quickly shift to be able to engage with brokers and our partners in this forced digital environment. And there's a number of things that we did one was we're working very closely with our IT team, which we call BTS, just to basically get get up to speed and be able to give our our underwriters who are more or less the front line as it relates to engaging with our brokers. And, and I should note that all of our business access is done through intermediaries. So it's through brokers, it's through strategic partners. So so what we had to do was give people the capabilities to be able to engage. And it was, I think, an exciting and ultimately a great moment of opportunity. For despite all the challenges and horrible things that came with the pandemic, it was a great moment of opportunity to rapidly accelerate the digitization that we knew we needed to do within our business, as a company, and also from a marketing standpoint, begin to pivot more into the digital space. So doing regular virtual events, doing much more targeted marketing, via email channels, and much more targeted work through social media and, and social media platforms. And just looking at how to engage with our partners through different means. This enabled us to have that moment where we were able to force change, and one of the great things coming out of it is now you fast forward today to 2022. And we've kept a lot of the work that we've begun to do in that space. And we're also beginning to really invest in doing a lot more on the digital front, where we're going to be able to, I see now that the opportunity where we're really beginning to pivot and more towards the type of digital marketing that I've been a part of, and have helped drive out other companies that we just haven't been able to hear because it wasn't the way the industry thought. And it wasn't the way we thought yet.
Ben Kaplan 4:03
So So it's interesting to think about when it's been popular to talk about, okay, we were already on the path to digital transformation. And a lot of companies pandemic accelerated that, but this idea of the acceleration of a digital marketing path, particularly for you know, some some types of industries and verticals very aligned towards that, right, you're gonna be at a tech marketing company, they're going to traditional tech, you know, in Silicon Valley, they're going to have a digital marketing stack, or they're gonna be oriented there. But there's a lot of other kinds of businesses, sometimes big businesses like access capital that don't have that orientation, because they haven't needed it. So how much time you know, I don't know measured in years that this sort of accelerate things if you were going to kind of put your finger on like, what did it cause and how did it how you know, how to accelerate and what was the what was the sort of collective will in the organisation to do something, you know, how did that change?
Joe Cohen 4:58
I would say The Visit guests, I would say about five years, and the collective will was strong. So all of a sudden, you had no other option and and what we heard from our partner, but no other option as it related to our teams that were on the front line, he needed solutions. And what we heard from our partners was that they were looking for creative ideas. And they were partners internally that they were looking for creative ideas, and they were looking for support. And there were certain things that we that I that we did very well and that are going to live on. Today. There were other times where we, you know, we took some bets, and we had some learnings that that didn't work out. But ultimately, just the idea of transitioning to the way of thinking that we would do some fast fails and do some experiments, I think it was also healthy in that respect, where we kind of had a playbook that we were working at for a very long time. And as it related to being a bit more a little bit more experimental, it opened the door for that, I would say cultural change that lives on, well, which is
Ben Kaplan 6:01
interesting, in a in a industry like insurance, where, you know, this idea of like fail fast is almost like, in some ways, antithesis to the industry, right is built around managing risk reducing risk, finding a way to navigate that, what was what was how would you describe sort of, I guess, you know, marketing, culture, and more generally, company culture, kind of like before and after, how would you just sort of describe it before? And then now that we're sort of, hopefully emerging from the pandemic, how would you describe it now? And what is that, that difference that, that that occurred?
Joe Cohen 6:37
Yeah, so I think part of what was our marketing culture, that was a good part of it, and that we never lost and that we should never lose is we very much wanted to be a we had a service model where we were there to support our underwriters who are out there on the front line writing business, and, and ultimately helping generate the growth that we need to advance the company and advance the organisation and meet our goals. So we always had this definite, I guess, service driven mentality to the way we worked. Now, part of what the pandemic opened up was for us to elevate our role as a strategic partner in helping to solve problems and introduce new ways of thinking, and really have marketing be looked at on a different lens. And so I think in that respect, it had a big impact in shifting the way we work and the way we were looked towards by certain certain parts of the business. So and I
Ben Kaplan 7:33
should mention that your your background is is interesting and untraditional, perhaps in some respects for a CMO will hit on the fact that you are a one time Hip Hop DJ, we'll do that. That's true. But But besides that, what's interesting is, is that you come up from really a communications path where yes, come up, you've had, you know, a long career in communications, PR, you were chief communications officer, a lot of people in that track chief communications officer will be the pinnacle, right? If you're gonna keep advancing maybe advanced to larger companies, or you have more more responsibility or you have, you know, overall, you're kind of climb up the fortune 500 In terms of where you're at. But a lot people don't jump over unnecessarily to cmo CIO. And that was I know, unexpected for you. Take us through sort of how that happened. And how being a communications forward cmo who's aware of that influences you in the job now?
Joe Cohen 8:32
Yeah, well, Ben, as you know, I listen to podcast and I hear you ask people, what's your superpower? So I thought he may ask me that. So I need so so I'd say my superpower would be communications. And I could talk more about that in a moment. But what I'd say is there's a lot of transferable skills, and just ways of working that you develop, coming up in the communications and PR field, that brings a lot of benefit just to being a business executive. And, and I think, certainly a marketing executive in the current, you know, fast moving agile environment. So and certainly where every decision that you're making the reputational stakes are so high. So going back a step or two, when I had begun my career, I didn't have any interest in going into marketing or communications. I was studying broadcast journalism. And then I became a DJ. We could talk more about that in a bit. But I had taken a job at a communications firm called M WW. And I started off in financial services. And it was interesting work and intellectually stimulating, and I was working on b2b and b2c, but part of what was really exciting to me was this emerging consumer marketing pillar that was rising in the firm. So I eventually got involved in that and I was one of the early people working on that team. And by the time I left I was I was one of people managing that that pillar, and during that period I was, I was doing communications, but I was also doing a lot of integrated marketing, and at times leading work and driving work that was marketing in nature. And at other times working as part of big, integrated marketing teams getting a chance to really see how ChIAT day, especially during the apple days was running, I didn't work on Apple, but then at that, at that moment in time seeing their approach to marketing and, and a number of, of major companies, whether it's Ogilvy and so on, and get chance to understand the way they operate and get an appreciation for the marketing function. So I, when I came to access, part of what was appealing about the opportunity was they were looking for a CCO to come in and build the function, because at that point, it had been at that point, it had been largely outsourced. They want someone to co own the brand with a CMO. And they also want someone from outside the industry. And for me, that was really cool and exciting because it was a chance to help impact and grow and shape the brand during what was already a time of change for access in the insurance industry. And And also, it was a it was a chance to it was a chance to kind of go and take a lot of these insights that I had from outside the field and apply them to insurance. And I just liked that it was a company that was thinking that way that we want someone who thinks different and brings that outside, you know that different perspective. So and here I am six years later, and I absolutely love axis
Ben Kaplan 11:36
one. And there you go. And you mentioned mentioned apple, and of course their their tagline is think differently. They like that as well. And so how did you it's also interesting, besides the fact that you came up in the communications track, it's also interesting that you have a lot of consumer brands in your background. Yeah. And it sounds like that was actually maybe valued about thinking differently. How does that part of your career and we can kind of name you know, some of the brands that people will have heard of here too? How does that inform you in a very different type of marketing for, as you said, your marketing kind of to intermediaries to deliver a b2b service.
Joe Cohen 12:15
In then in so many ways, I'll start by just talking about how we present the brand. And if you look at the insurance space, and certainly financial services, you have a lot of brands that look very similar and a bit old school a little bit stuffy. And there's a lot of big words and jargon being thrown out. And, and certainly there's a reason for that. Because if you're a b2b shop, which which we are or b2b carrier, you're interacting with a lot of people who are in the industry. And having said that, there as far as being able to define your brand in a different way, and present your brand in a vibrant and an exciting way and connect with people on an emotional level. That's not something that brands are often thinking about. Now more so but certainly six years ago, not not as much. Also I was someone who had always on the agency side, and then running communications for kind been drawn to the power of leveraging purpose in growing a brand. And when I came to access now, purpose is a big part of our branding. But early on, that wasn't something that we were thinking about. So there was a lot of opportunity there as far as how to mobilise and engage employees to tell a brand story to be brand ambassadors to really now we call it Employer Branding, but and in the great resignation era, it carries a lot of weight, but how do you how do you engage with your employees and leverage them? That was something that that came more from that, that consumer side, and also, I'd say, the PR side, but all those were different ways of thinking that I brought, but as I moment, I also know what I mentioned jargon before, when I saw the movie, The Big Short, it really resonated with me as far as you know, the idea that you have these great narrative where it's Margot robbing a bathtub, taking complex concepts and breaking it down in simple terms, you find a lot of that in the financial sector, and just being able to speak in a human voice carries a lot of weight.
Ben Kaplan 14:13
And, and this was interesting, and I think you mentioned kind so kind, of course, like kind of the kind of bar the I don't know how you describe it, I guess like healthy energy, granola sort of like but more nut based fruit bar that people like. And then you go from that from being you know, Head of Communications there to Head of Communications at access and then become a CMO. So what is what is the the parts of kind that you bring with you to your job now? Is it some of that purpose driven or Probert proach? Is that something else? I'm just being aware of what you sort of stand for in your positioning, or is it something different that you use everyday now?
Joe Cohen 14:54
Yeah, so kind and I'll shout out the CEO Daniel Lubezki, who knows the I'm the emeritus Chairman CEO, he brilliant as far as being a, really a pioneer of both as it relates to food and healthy snacks and also purpose. So coming out of, of kind, the idea of what I was there, it was a smaller brand than it is today. And it was rapidly growing during that period. And I'm proud that I was part of the team that contributed to that. But as far as bootstrapping it, and doing more with less, and, and really coming up with creative ways to break through that, you know, that was something that we did a lot to make that brand feel really big, where it was a smaller company than you may have realised, certainly at that time, also, as it related to purpose and the idea of, of, of showing how you're a company with a soul, and being able to say that we could both make money and be a profitable organisation and owning that, while at the same time leave a positive imprint on the world and the communities where we do business. That was something that that kind was very clear that you know, for profit business, but at the end of the day, there was a real social purpose that that was threaded through everything that that kind does. And then also, I think, the simplicity in the branding, part of the and the transparency, as far as simplicity is something clear, very clear, crisp, minimalist type of approach to branding, the, the, the different, that that, I think is something that we've tried to leverage in access, also the simplicity of the written word, how we present access in some of our messages, and then transparency, addressing tough issues head on being able to provide through our branding, and our communications of peak within the company, how we operate, those are all different, both strategic ways of thinking and some tactical elements that have been that I've certainly have tapped into, in my role that axis,
Ben Kaplan 17:03
and how does that How do you think about now this idea of purpose driven marketing? You know, if looking at, you know, environmental and social governance ESG? How does that I know that's important to access. Now, how do you think about that, and balance that with? You know, we've got a we've got to have some underwriters talk to some brokers. This, you know, isn't normally part of necessarily that conversation, maybe, maybe it maybe it should be? How do you sort of move that from being kind of a nice to have that we're doing good to something that is actually core to what the brand represents and how you market?
Joe Cohen 17:48
Yeah, well, as it relates to purpose driven marketing, you have to understand what one what you want to accomplish with purpose and what it won't do. And something that we knew at kind was that ultimately, it had to be a snack bar that tasted good, and that people would want to buy, they would buy that ahead of purpose. Purpose was something that made them feel good about their purchase. And at access. At the end of the day, when we're leading with our marketing, we're leading by saying that were a top specialty firm. And that's that's the category that we play in that we've got great underwriters and great acumen that we've got superior claims handling, those are the key differentiators that matter to our brokers and the end insured. Now, having said that, there still is a big role for purpose to play. As far as we know that our younger, are both younger or we have a new generation of talent that's entering insurance. And all the data shows that that generation whether it's on the broker or the underwriter side, they want to work for and work with companies that care about making a positive impact. That's something else and as it relates to attracting and retaining employees, they want to work at a company that is that's that's doing good for the world or that certainly isn't isn't doing harm. That's something that is specific to Gen Z and younger millennials. In addition to that something relevant to access is we have a stake in the game because we're a top five global player in renewable energy. So that's a part of the business that we're growing. There comes the bring some credibility in the space if we are if we also walk the talk as it relates to ESG. And as it relates to purpose. You also have to identify subtopics where you have a horse in the race. So for us environment made a lot of sense our business we do work in property insurance and property reinsurance so we see firsthand the impact of climate change. And and we have tonnes of data to show how it's impacted us and the businesses that we support. So it's something where if we have a more sustainable world, ultimately it's good for our business. Well So as a leader in renewable energy, as I noted, we've got, we've got a stake in the game there. And another area that we've invested in is DNI. And that's something where we have a fundamental belief within our company, that if you have a diverse and inclusive workforce, it's going to enrich the way you think you're going to be able to provide one, you're going to be able to provide better not just enrich the way you think, but you're going to be able to provide services to other audiences that you may not reach. And also, we just want an atmosphere where people are able and comfortable to bring their whole self to work, because you'll have a more engaged workforce, and a workforce that is more likely to stay and grow with the company.
Ben Kaplan 20:42
So on on ESG, talk about the the sort of the will within the company, to to embrace that as a as a message and the role of, you know, I know, there was another pivotal moment where, you know, black rocks CEO, yeah, I think Larry Fink announces that, you know, they're only going to invest in companies that have this certain minimum threshold and sort of, sort of ESG kind of metrics and impact on the environment. How does? How does that change the collective? We'll do that? How does having sort of like an external, validating for someone who's look up to in a lot of financial circles do that? How does that sort of change? Are you able to, to kind of harness that to change the collective will to implement something that that's major like that? Yeah,
Joe Cohen 21:32
so So first, going back in time, when I first joined the company, something that struck me about axis, and it became apparent during the interview process is that this was a company that organically did a lot of good in its local communities. And speaking with our CEO, Albert Benjamin, he genuinely, you know, this is something that is specific to him and his background. He wants to run a company that makes a positive impact. And our chairman at the time, Michael, but and the Board of Directors, there was a lot of work in an unstructured way that had ESG elements to it. But it wasn't formalised, and at that point, it wasn't necessarily a business priority. But there was a lot of pockets of ESG type work happening across the company. So it
Ben Kaplan 22:15
was it wasn't a formal direction, or it was just like people were interested in doing it, there's a sense that we should do good, and it was sort of like bubbling up around the company.
Joe Cohen 22:26
Exactly. And you could see this momentum building. Now, when Larry Fink, Blackrock CEO introduced his letter Larry's letter, a sense of purpose. And Blackrock announced that they were going to really make investment decisions with ESG as a key as a key threshold, that sort of earthquake within the financial services sector. And certainly within axis where we were already predisposed to do this kind of work, that created really a catalyst moment to have conversations about we should create a formalised programme and and we've called it a corporate citizenship programme, which is really as hard ESG. But at that point, and this goes back to 2017 2018. That's where we start to see the momentum behind it take off. And the end at this point, if you look at our marketing, all these years later, and our brand presence, you'll see purpose is interwoven into the way we present ourselves in so many different ways. And also the way we are renewable energy businesses, I noticed that's one that continues to grow. So and I think for us, right now, as we look to the future, we look at ESG as something that's the right way to run ourselves as an organisation. But there's also a marketing opportunity there, because there's ESG products that are there's a whole ESG category, in within insurance, that it's early days, but that's something that presents a business opportunity. And being open about that and saying that it's good for business and good for the world is something that is is like I said before, a way of thinking that I had learned to edit, you know, pestrol a kind.
Ben Kaplan 24:08
So what is your advice for other CMOS to sort of capitalise on these maybe external events that can bring about great and rapid change? And we've talked about two we've talked about the pandemic of course, and sort of the acceleration towards digital from that we've talked about ESG and this Blackrock letter and suddenly if someone like that is saying this is super, super important, other people in the industry, pay attention for the next event moments sort of external factor force, how should CMOS what is your advice and sort of how to recognise that and and use that as a catalyst for change that either one otherwise you couldn't do or that would take five years?
Joe Cohen 24:54
Sure. So one is you can start forecasting with some of what some of it is. Now you may not know what the MO Is that creates the opportunity. But as I noted ESG, and corporate citizenship, as we call it axis was something where we saw the opportunity, we were beginning to move it along, then we had that catalyst moment and we seized upon it. Same thing with digital investment and and the acceleration of the work being done on that front, what I'll say is that, as a CMO, you can't go it alone. So forging strong partnerships with different functions is table stakes. And it's, and also, I think, a lot of times, you have to be wary of provincial behaviour, you have to be comfortable that we could be one of the functions driving this, but maybe it won't be marketing lead, maybe it'll be marketing is a player or certain aspects of it, is marketing assisted. But the idea of going in one with idea of, of, of embracing different stakeholder groups, in some ways, even being willing to be a convener, and ultimately, having a selfless approach with a company wins, those are all different aspects of it. And it's something that I had learned during my CCO days, is I worked very closely with HR and worked very closely with functions that I may not have worked as closely with on the on the marketing side. But having those relationships or IRA is another example where there's strong ties, at least to ESG. But being able to, to, to connect the dots, where it makes sense between marketing and those functions, employer, branding, being an opportunity with HR, those are, those are different relationships that weren't investment. So when that catalyst moment comes, you have a baseline to build off of those are, that's a key, a key part of it. The other item, I'd note is being very clear, and very, very intentional in underscoring what your objectives are, and it can be overwhelmed, change can be overwhelming. So you have to be able to really paint a picture of what what what's the business benefit? First and foremost, what can you expect to see now? What can you expect to see later? And, and be very clear as far as the way we would with any marketing campaign? What are the KPIs? What are the milestones that you expect to see from as it relates to the progression of the programmes, so having that same level of discipline and rigour that you put into any campaign, you know, it's not per se, a traditional marketing campaign, you know, all of those and having the data to back your argument, you know, that's, that's, of course, one on one, those are all different things to factor in, in moving forward campaigns. So the catalyst moment comes, but there's a lot of other work that can be pre work leading, leading into
Ben Kaplan 27:45
one and I actually love the, for a lot of the clients, we advise where it work global marketing agency, I love this notion of, of doing good, is good business, when it's done well. And I think there's more of a commitment to do it, when it actually ties in with business goals, ties in with business objectives. Even now, as you describe, even tying with different lines of business, you have different industry verticals and segments. So I think, this idea that, you know, the good side of what we do the foundation, the the Corporate Social Responsibility kind of sits over here, and you're certain size of company, it's table stakes, you sort of got to have it, it's a little bit of protection against being criticised because you're an easy target. And it can exist like that. And you can be happy that good work is done. And you could even be kind of innovative in it, you can do that. But if you get it from the sort of the lane of its own, and can integrate it with everything else, then suddenly, you've got a lot of support, a lot of will you're not having to convince the CFO to do an extra investment this year for this. It's like it's 100% aligned. So I love it when companies try to do that and get it out of its own way.
Joe Cohen 29:03
Now, that's spot on, I think the point you made about convincing the CFO, ultimately, if you're leveraging all your internal resources, and you have your partners around the table, I mentioned bootstrapping it before. Of course, there's an investment that needs to be made, but you may identify efficiencies that normally wouldn't occur to you. So that's, anyway, that's one of the values of really looking at at those sorts of programmes very much through a team lens where like I said, you may be working with different functions that typically you wouldn't
Ben Kaplan 29:35
know your background in. Communications, yes, but also PR one of the things you learn when you learn it when you do PR well, and we have a global PR agency also is how to be opportunistic with what's in the news, what's trending as a whole kind of branch of of sort of media relations that I would call rapid response PR right. The story is breaking it it's in the news. Let's jump on it. Let's comment on it. Let's put our expert. Fourth, let's take advantage of this moment we didn't we didn't, we can't maybe like, predict the wave. But once the wave is there, we can write it. How does that inform you as a CMO that maybe doesn't have that background in PR that is used to, you know, finding the term would be a news pack that you can jump on to kind of bring your message or your marketing home? Yeah, well,
Joe Cohen 30:27
I think what's what's interesting as it relates to the working with people who are classically trained in communications, versus classically trained in marketing, there's a difference and the way we run marketing and comms and I'll answer the question, but the way we run marketing and comms axis was we made the decision to blend the functions and not have a marketing team here and a communications team here. And that was very intentional, because I, I believe in the team philosophy is that their complementary ways of thinking and behaving, were people who are classically trained in PR, they may be scrappy, super agile, ready to move fast, you know, seize on that, that moment to build cultural relevance. More, sometimes, what you see with people who are more classically trained in marketing is do your research, go through all the proper steps, do your testing, follow a highly disciplined approach. And there's enormous value, of course in that, so ultimately, when it relates to PR, being able to move fast, being able to take some big bets and take some risks, and push yourself a little bit outside your comfort zone, that can be a little bit uncomfortable, in some ways for classic marketing models and approaches, not not all the time. But sometimes it's also gonna be very uncomfortable for the organisation itself, particularly if you're an industry that tends to be a little risk averse. But ultimately, what I'd say is being able to show why it makes sense for the brand, being able to make announcements where you're not just use jacking and talking about something that's that's relevant. But But explain why why do you? Why should you be the company talking about it? And your announcement really having substance, not just are you talking about it? What are you as the company doing, those are all different elements that I think are critical as it relates to newsjacking. And also, having something to say that, that really, ultimately is brand building, and will truly help break through. Because people at these days we have an audience of general consumers and and just people in general who have a pretty high BS metre, when it comes to what's something that's just hype? And when are companies really genuinely looking to invest and do something and have a real impact? So that's, so that's, that's something that's different than, you know, over 20 years ago, when I began my career in PR, and I think it's, it's healthy for business, it's healthy for the world to
Ben Kaplan 33:03
and one of the ways where that question of Yep, you know, are you is it all style? Or is there a substance behind it? Where that has impact is on? employee experience? Yeah, recruiting new employees or team members, marketing for talent. And I think when you have when you come from an internal comms background, you maybe have more of a sense of like, how is this communicated? When we're a large company, we have 1000s of employees, we're thoughtful about how we do that. So how do how does your work as CMO? How do you start thinking about the marketing you're doing through the lens of it's actually also being viewed by potential employees or partners or, you know, affiliated entities? How do you think about that? And how do you think about the marketing function as a driver of recruiting or talent acquisition or everything related to that?
Joe Cohen 34:03
Yeah, well, I think this is an example where the, what I'd say is traditional employee engagement and internal comms has a lot to learn from traditional marketing, approaching employee engagement with the same rigour and discipline that goes into targeting, you know, targeting your customers with a marketing campaign to order in order to have the maximum impact, you got to you got to go at it from with that kind of mindset and that mentality. So as it relates to the way we approach employee engagement, which is a big focus for us, and it was accelerated by the pandemic, is we measure everything we study it can't we're constantly studying our colleagues, also external views of what talent are looking for an employer, but certainly, internally, we do a lot of work to understand the mood sentiment issues that are of importance, how people internally and externally are interacting with content that's targeted to employ existing employees and prospective employees.
Ben Kaplan 35:08
What's an example? Sorry to interrupt, but what's an example of that like a metric? Like? Do you mean? Like, you know, if you're doing an external email marketing campaign, you'd be looking at, you know, are people opening this? Are they, you know, are they clicking on things maybe a little more sophisticated be like, or how long? Are they reading it for? You can track that? Do you mean, bring that over into internal communications as well? So you know, more about how they're engaging? Is that what you mean? Or do you mean something different in terms of these metrics?
Joe Cohen 35:35
No, that's precisely so we. So we follow that same way of measurement. We know exactly what people are opening reading, whether they're engaging with digital, I'm sorry, video, I should say, whether they're reading written content, whether they're forwarding it on, but in addition to that, the way you would do, the way you would do focus groups, research surveys, where we're doing that, you know, we try not to, we always have to be mindful of survey fatigue, and that kind of thing, but where we're studying how our employees behave, and getting both qualitative and quantitative data, so And then similarly, as it relates externally, with social media being a key way to gather information, we're also doing a tonne of measurement to understand what resonates and what doesn't. And something I'll note that kind of ties back to the point that you made before Ben, about taking consumer a consumer marketing way of presenting our brand, the way we give an example, the way were promoting our our, that also relates to cultural relevance and newsjacking. Early on, when we started to come out of the pandemic, and shift more towards a hybrid environment, we made a decision as a company, that we were going to have a hybrid model, meaning that we'd be in the office about three days a week and work at home two days a week, but ultimately, we called it flex for your day. And what we saw as a lot of our competitors in the space were were were less flexible than us. So that was something immediately we saw as a marketing opportunity for employer brand. And the way we told the story in kind of a more gritty way was, had a bunch of employees, take it take videos, capture, basically, their hybrid lifestyle, threaded together in videos about what flex for your day means for them. And we did a series of videos that we promote on social media, and the engagement was extremely high. And we know because we have a marketing partnership with HR, we're able to track how it impacts hiring data, retention data, etc. Well, maybe not retention for that example. But where we're interacting with HR, so we're able to get a sense of, you know, same way we would with our with the business, does it impact sales? does it interact it impact premium growth? How does it impact talent, and I'm getting, you know, business data all the time, as you'd expect, I'm also getting data as far as what's our what's our hiring and retention data. So that way, I'm able to understand and, and so that we my team's able to be a great partner to our internal stakeholders on the employer branding front. And I think
Ben Kaplan 38:22
what's nice about that sometimes gets forgotten about data, and particularly data in in little doses and testing and things is, besides people think like, okay, data, I want to be, you know, objective, I want to make good decisions. But some of the, I think the power of data is that you don't have to be right out of the gate, like you can like, you can judge something you can see, it will tell you that so so sometimes people will they say like, like why should I be a data driven marketer? Why should I embrace data more? Well, it's kind of like a relief not to have to be right all the time, you can test stuff, you can try stuff, you can, you know, get to the answer in a series of small pivots that gets you there. Boy, if you don't use data, you better be great at everything, because you're gonna have to be a much better out of the gate because you won't know how you're doing.
Joe Cohen 39:10
Yeah. And I think that also having the humility to be able to share your learnings, which I think a lot of good marketers do, and it's kind of 101. But it can't be said enough. Being able to point out, here's what we're doing, where it didn't work, but here's where it is working. And that's where, you know, that's where we're going to double down and triple down in these areas and maybe cut bait if we need to in other areas. So we feel that's the right path. I'd say that's something that is a marketing way of thinking that unfortunately, I don't see enough of that in traditional communications. So but but that having that honesty, and that willingness to admit failure, that builds credibility internally. So you know, ultimately, though, you want to have a lot more successes than failures, of course.
Ben Kaplan 39:50
Sure. Sure. Well, so. So, to wrap up a little bit of a lightning round on just kind of different marketing channels. I'd love to get your take on it as a Uh, as a CMO that's had to navigate maybe a traditional type of of company transitioning into more and more digital oriented marketing. So, first first question is, in person events, overrated, under or underrated? And how do you approach it in person events in 2023? Let's say, how do you view this?
Joe Cohen 40:23
I would say probably underrated at this point. So what I was, you know, coming off the heels of having gone to a broker event that we just hosted on swapper biggest brokers, biggest broker events that we've done, we had done three years, and being able to engage face to face with your customers, we introduced a new a new division, having a chance to do that in person, you could do a lot digitally, and we need to continue to invest digitally, but you can't replace in person interaction. So I believe the marketing playbook of the future you get in person events need to be a critical part of it. Of course, you know, you don't want to lose all the all the progress that we made as it relates to the what you could do virtually. So if done well. I think the pendulum was swinging swung too far, where companies are reticent to make that investment, I still think it's a critical, a critical platform for networking and engaging in driving business with you know, with partners.
Ben Kaplan 41:26
Second lightning round question bridges, traditional comms and the marketing side, but executive thought leadership, specifically empowering the C suite to kind of carry the mantle of your company and and that may be on official company channels. But it also could be on like personal channels, personal social media, other things, overrated or underrated, and how do you approach it executive thought leadership?
Joe Cohen 41:55
So I would say within insurance, underrated with a qualifier that you have to actually have something to say. So what we've what we've seen is that as we begun to take a stand on more substantive issues, and and really begin to truly innovate and launch into different areas where we haven't before, we've had a lot of success with Thought Leadership, renewable energy, we do a tremendous amount on that front, as helped build the brand. It certainly helped us generate awareness and differentiation with key customer groups. So I think if done well, it's it's actually underrated in the business that I'm in now. Now, having said that, if you approach thought leadership, and you're not really delivering insights for delivering value, versus just promoting your brand, it's more of a hype machine for then then it's overrated, because you're not going to get the impact that you want.
Ben Kaplan 42:51
And finally, I'd love to get your take on on this notion that I hear from a lot of b2b companies large claims, which is b2b company that says, We should brand ourselves more like a b2c company like more like a lifestyle brand. What do we represent? How do we do that? So overrated? Or underrated? And how do we approach it sort of b2b brand positioning, more like a b2c lifestyle company?
Joe Cohen 43:21
Why was it as it relates to being a lifestyle brand overrated? Now, having said that, as I noted earlier, there's a lot of elements that come from being a that come from the b2c world that can be repurposed and used to really strengthen b2b brands. But at the end of the day, you also have to be true to who you are, and what your customers are looking for. And for axis, for example, you know, we're not a lifestyle brand we have our brokers are coming to us, because they're looking for specific products and services and a carrier that brings global capabilities. And now having said that, the the idea of having values and standing for something, and also being able to communicate and engage with brokers in the way that consumer brands do, that's great, but I think it goes a little bit too far. If you try to communicate yourself as a lifestyle brand, or you actually put forward creative, that's a little bit too artsy, and you lose sight of who you are and what you do.
Ben Kaplan 44:25
Sure, sure. Well, so that brings us to maybe my final topic of the day, which is, as promised, your background as a hip hop DJ. And, you know, you're you're studying to be I guess, a broadcaster, a broadcast journalist. You become a hip hop, DJ. And how does that inform you today? Are you one are you are you an encyclopaedia of hip hop knowledge, and and I won't test you, we'll just we'll take you at face value on that. But the two, what are the things you learn from that? I'm a big believer just like Be an experienced collector collect all kinds of experiences, and you ever know how it will influence you? And how will be valuable to you. But how does that impact you today as as as a CMO?
Joe Cohen 45:11
Yeah, in a lot of ways, and I knew that, I feel you need what you want to talk about that in a lot of ways. So what I'd say is if there's a connective thread, but first, if there's a connective thread between all the different experiences, whether it was m w, w, and being a hip hop DJ, and being a kind of being an axis is I'm drawn towards opportunity where I could be a builder, and and help grow companies and grow organisations. And WWE was at that point and emerging, midsize firm, kind I, you know, we re know is, you know, is on the path towards growing itself. Access is a challenger brand that's been growing, you know, still multibillion dollar company, but challenger brand compared to some of our peers. Now, as it relates to hip hop, this is going back to the late 90s, where I do have an encyclopaedic knowledge in that era, not so much now. But at that point, it was new and exciting. And we were growing that station, and the idea of doing more with less, and building a brand. And being a little bit gritty, those were all aspects of the way we were promoting that station. Also, the way you present yourself, the way you you know, this was a radio DJ, not you know, not necessarily a party DJ, the way you present yourself being able to communicate information in short windows, being able to understand your audience and know what they want, and what they don't want. Those were all lessons that I began to cultivate during that period, and also the power of music in marketing, and the emotional impact they could have on people. And I'm not just talking about the music you use in spots, what music do you use at events? What music do you use, at pot to open up your podcasts, what every there's, there's something, there's a statement that you make about your brand, with the music that you use, and it goes well beyond jingles. So that's something that stuck with me, the other item is that, you know, DNI is a big part of what we do at Axios. And at that point, in hip hop, there was definitely strong messages about inclusive and inclusivity. And, and really breaking down racial and cultural barriers. And that left a strong imprint on me that to this day, is one of the many reasons why I care very passionately about DNI and, you know, being, you know, in a small way, a part of, you know, the hip hop movement then helped shape my thinking as it relates to DNI.
Ben Kaplan 47:41
And one of my favourite Hip Hop quotes of all time that I think should be quoted by by more marketers and more business people was, is by Jay Z, which is, I'm not a businessman. I'm a business man. And, and all of us are cultivating I think, in marketing, we're cultivating brands, for our, our companies, but we're also, you know, cultivating our own personal brands, as well. So if you're not just a businessman, if you're also a business man, what are you? What do you stand for? What is, you know, Joe Cohen, I won't ask you the superpower question. I'll instead ask you, what is it that, that, you know, you hope your brand will be as a marketer, moving forward and on to new opportunities and challenges and adventures?
Joe Cohen 48:35
Yeah, so So one thing I'll say is another, another great cheesy quote is Can't Knock the Hustle. So in this cannot go hustle, it just sounds less cool when I say it. But what I'd say is, as it relates to my my legacy in marketing, and communications, as well as I want to be able to say that I, I helped leave a better impact on the brands that I supported. And then I was able to help grow those brands when leaving a better impact on the world. I think that's part of it, and also do work that I feel is very fulfilling. And that's less of a legacy. And that's more of just how I want to live my life. The other item and you know, something that we talked about in the pre qual is, as a parent is I want to be able, you know, my kids in 20 years, 30 years, they're going to be able to look and see everything that I did I want them to feel good about their dad and the type of work that he did as a marketing and communications professional. They could they could be listening this podcast for all I know. So that's something that I think about a lot now as a parent as well.
Ben Kaplan 49:39
Well, there you have it. Joe Cohen, CMO and Chief Communications Officer access capital, background in PR and communications now you're trying to lead you know, kind of a move into digital marketing. You've got background as a as a hip hop DJ, which makes you instantly cool. Also purpose driven marketing, as well. Well as employee engagement, you're thinking about all of that. Really appreciate you coming on. And thanks for being on TOP CMO.
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