Ben Kaplan 0:00
So Greg Hoffman, welcome to Top CMO. And we're talking about emotion by design. And I love how you start out your book, it's the scene is, you've had this amazing career at Nike. You're reflecting on how your your tenure there has gone full circle. And I actually want to start at the beginning. So you reach the highest levels of Nike, but you actually start in a really unusual way you start as a logo designer. So talk about maybe humble beginnings. And how does working on logos as a designer, eventually inform your career as it develops? And you start to understand the mechanics of how emotion works in marketing?
Speaker 2 0:40
Sure. Well, thanks for the invitation. Today, Ben, I'm looking forward to this conversation. And yes, I started Nike as a graphic design intern, right. And at that time, I had not really explored a career in marketing. And I've not really gone beyond creating visual communication. And I explored what it's like to ask the type of questions of how you want make, how you want people to feel, right when you engage with them as a brand. And so it wasn't until I got to Nike, that I started to be around teammates in a team culture that really looked at their relationship with consumers, right, and not just transactions. And so coming in, and my first projects were designing logos. And if you think about it, you have to tell an entire story about a brand or an athlete or a product, within a brand mark that oftentimes is no bigger than, you know, a quarter, right? So there's, there's a lot that has to go in that. So in some ways you are revealing the story of the brand, through a what I like to call a visual signature, or a brand mark is the punctuation for your message, right, and what you put out in the world. So that's where I started. But being part of this, this company that resonated so deeply and so emotionally, with consumers and audiences of all types, I started to go on this journey of really thinking about the total experience that people have with a brand at all touchpoints. And over the years, that's when I started to expand my own responsibilities to include things like brand communication, and social media marketing, and event and retail marketing, you name it. And ultimately, yes, that led me to the role of chief marketing officer.
Ben Kaplan 2:52
Well, so how do you when you think about your journey, and all these levels, and you think about the role that emotion played, you start at Nike, you weren't planning on that you would be you know, emotion would be a tool of your marketing, you're exposed to a lot of, you know, talented people, great marketers. At what point did you start to realise that, like, emotion is the currency by which we, we play I imagine me I did some internships, I wouldn't have a clue about that. Then, at what point did you start to say, like, this becomes, I have a big toolkit. I'm at Nike, I have a lot of resources. I have celebrity athletes, I have really creative teams and people, but actually, emotion is one of the biggest tools I have, as I as I as I as I do my job.
Speaker 2 3:37
That's right. And you know, little did I know, as a teenager, subconsciously, I guess I knew, because just like my first pair of Nike sneakers were the Air Force One, right. And that gave me a level of confidence on the court, right beyond my skill level, and certainly the communication. The classic and iconic advertising that I came across as a teenager, really stirred my emotions, and certainly gave me more belief as a brand. But it was the aha moments were really this is that I was part of work in those early years, where the team was asking the question of what's our invitation? Right? What is the movement, we are inviting the audience to be a part of, right? And that's where I started to understand this idea of good brands, great moments, but it's the great brands that create movements, and that's the spirit of just do it. Of course, just do it transcends just being a slogan. Right? It's a state of mind and a way of life for millions around the world. And it needs no translation. So it was really in those early years and being part of those conversations and seeing how this brand Live this idea of serving versus selling, if you will. And like that, that ultimately is the role when you're when you're trying to serve your audience, then, then you're going to try to know them in the deepest way possible, which will ultimately I believe, lead to a strong longer term relationship.
Ben Kaplan 5:23
Well, so our version of kind of putting the audience first, we would call it you first, rather than me first, meaning we need to serve you first. And then we earned the right to have our message. Right along with that if we serve you first. Now, it's also very invoked to say, our audience, or in this case, the consumer is the hero of the story, right? Our job is to make them their own hero. And I think you see that in a lot of sort of iconic Nike ads, which we'll go through where it's celebrating the hero, that hero could be LeBron James or Tiger Woods. Or that hero can be the you know, and one of the one of the ads kind of the the kid who's out there in the middle of nowhere, running along and trying to be great. So how does that plan this notion of, you're talking about service to others? But also, who's the hero who's the senator, who's the protagonist, and how you've thought about that in terms of creating emotion in that connection?
Speaker 2 6:22
Well, it's a great question. And part of my role and everyone's role during those years was to broaden the definition of sport and broaden the definition of what it means to be an athlete, and really instil this idea that, you know, greatness isn't a birthright, it's not just for for the chosen few, or the elite athletes that you see on TV, our role was to instil this idea that everybody has this, this potential not only as an athlete, but as a human being. And when you get into the business of helping people reach their full potential as athletes, it's quite powerful. And of course, that's a pretty big marketplace. And, you know, so your, your, your point about putting the audience or the customer at the centre of this hero's journey, if you will, is is part of that, but it but you have to make sure that your your message and the stories that you're exploring and communicating that that they are relatable, even if they feature the greatest athletes on on Earth competing at the highest level, like at the Olympics, or the World Cup, the way you express that and reveal that truth, if you will, the athlete experience, you know, we we we have to see ourselves in that. And if I can tell you this is like in college, even before I knew I had the Nike internship, I had a Michael Jordan poster on my wall, and it was called wings. And underneath that poster was this, this, this quote that said, no bird can soar too high if he soars with his own wings. And the point is, is that I can't relate to Michael Jordan jumping from the free throw line and dunking, but I can relate to, to this idea of taking risks, and using what I have to soar higher. And so I think that, you know, all those years ago, was a clue to some of the experiences I would get to be a part of, you know, over the next almost three decades.
Ben Kaplan 8:35
Okay, well, let's, you're talking about the poster in your bedroom as a child, you're talking about that connection, you were talking about how that made me feel. What I'd like to talk about is, how do you so if, if you're going to come in and you're someone you're you know, a teammate at Nike, or maybe you're one of the, you know, the ad agencies or marketing agencies that's pitching Nike, and they're coming in, hey, we got this campaign hot off the press. We got some time in front of Greg Hoffman. They know you care about emotion, and they're going to show you this, this this new campaign they have what is the lens that you evaluate that Do you have a checklist in your mind of what you're watching? And I assume if it's at Nikes level is probably looks pretty great. There's probably some, you know, moving music with it that kind of stirs you up. And you know, you feel good. I think people it's not uncommon to shed a tear during a night you know, I sort of iconic Nike ad, but what are you going through your mind to know like, Okay, this is what we need to do. This is what we need to say, versus this is, you know, another nice looking ad that doesn't do that.
Speaker 2 9:45
Well, first and foremost, you know, certainly for your for your audience to understand is that the best communication the outcome is only as good as the insight or truth that you reveal in the beginning of the process. Uh, okay. And you know, that whole idea of, of empathy, if you will, is really important here because you need to peel back the layers and get beyond, you know, the obvious assumptions and observations to to find a deeper truth that you want to reveal in a creative way. And, you know, it's really difficult if you're just looking at a blank sheet of paper as a creative team. But you have no, no strong insights, to to go on, quite frankly, you'll probably create something that may look great. But it doesn't real, reveal anything else about the human condition beyond what you already know. So the iconic communication over the years from all brands, to me, really starts with a team understanding that and digging deep so I would always, you know, really start there and have a strong understanding before an idea goes all the way into production, right? And then part two is okay, so you you have the, the, the insight or truth you want to reveal. But how do you make it distinct and reveal it in this visceral way? And that's where I think here at curiosity plays such a big role in the creative process, because you need teams, kind of, you know, looking outside into the world of entertainment and technology and nature and all the different experiences that we have, and pulling those points of inspiration in to the process to create something amazing, because if you're in your own cocoon, right, and you're not being you're not being curious about what's happening in the world, you know, the spirit of the times what, what, what are people responding to, and what's on the cutting edge, it's gonna be in turn hard for you to be someone who, who starts trends or to be a trendsetter.
Ben Kaplan 12:11
Well, and, and that's a great segue into talking about, I think, one of the campaign's that that is very noteworthy and talked about, we can talk about some of that, like the long standing iconic ones, I mean, there's there's a lot there's, you know, from the original, just do it add to the, the, you know, Charles Barkley, I'm not a role model to many other articulations of all these, but more recently, and this played an important role in kind of the end of your tenure. And and I think it's really speaks to reflecting the times, but there's an ad where it talks about this notion of greatness, and you don't realise it in the ad. But it's Colin Kaepernick narrating this ad, which gets revealed at the end. So talk about that in the context of reflecting the times. Obviously, this created controversy, because there's it's a, it's, you know, a much to Colin Kaepernick has become a symbol of a debated heated topic related to injustice, and patriotism, and kneeling and all of these kinds of issues. What was the thought process there in terms of the emotional connection you mentioned, not just in how do you make movements? And what was the thought process leading to that to reflect the times?
Speaker 2 13:28
Yeah, great, great question. And, you know, it's interesting, you started this conversation with, you know, I think the beginning of my book and the retirement party, and I was presented a very big portrait, black and white portrait shot by the great photographer, peloton of Colin Kaepernick. Right. And that was a very emotional moment for me, because, you know, I had a deep respect for Colin sacrifice. And, you know, just being a part of the team that brought that that message to the world. And if you go back to 2017, when Colin didn't have a team to play for that, that summer of 2017, even though he was shortly removed from just being part of that Super Bowl team, right. So sitting at a small intimate lunch with Colin, as we talked about the best way to amplify his voice, and support that cause it was very personal to me because Colin and I share similarities, not certainly as athletes, but in our upbringings, in that we're both biracial. We're both half black and half white. We're both adopted by our white parents and grew up in, you know, a predominantly white school system. So those are the eyes I looked through as chief marketing officer that summer. So Sitting next to Colin thinking about how best we could we could move forward. And the second thing I want to say, and so that's that role of, again, empathy, and being able to realise someone else's kind of experience. The second thing I want to say is like, you know, I'm and the team is standing on the shoulders of all the work that had come before us that had addressed racial injustice in the world, right. And there's iconic work and campaigns that I illustrate in the book. So you're not alone in that pursuit. And you also have a very diverse team in the room. Right? Which, which is, is why they're there, they're, you know, there was no hesitation, I think, because we have the ability to make objective decisions, working as a team, making sure that whatever we said, always came through the lens of sport, right, because I think that's important when brands want to use their platform and position to take a stand on a particular social issue or a pressing cause of the time, they have to make sure they can connect what they sell, with what they believe the world needs in that time, and that their audience can also understand that, and so that was the work to be done. And, of course, a year later outcomes, you know, to celebrate the 30/30 anniversary of just do it is the crazy dreams campaign, obviously featuring featuring everyone from Colin Kaepernick to Serena to Lebron James. And there it It had an incredible resonance with so many types of people around the world. And I think, obviously, over the last three years, it's proven just how important that work is, and was to not only inspire people and make them feel but also inspire action.
Ben Kaplan 17:12
Right. Sure. And, and take me through, we have a lot of CMOS in our audience. And, and they might want to say like, Okay, well, I get how Nike connects with emotion, right? That's like at the corner of the brand. We're, you know, maybe I'm a b2b cmo, right? We don't we don't have these. We're not doing these iconic, you know, with celebrity athlete campaigns. Maybe someone else listening is like, we're we're a startup, you know, we're fast growing. But you know, we're not taking out TV starts bothers me, we're doing some YouTube pre roll. We're doing a little bit of digital here. What would you say to that? And I want to go back back to that specific ad. But what do you say to them for like, how can you pull and make emotional connection? Even if you're, you know, doing marketing for enterprise ad tech to a business audience, but you want to incorporate this in your everyday marketing's? I know, you try to make this not for the Nikes of the world, just the Nikes. But everyone else?
Speaker 2 18:07
Great, great question. I think whether you're b2b or b2c, or a small or large brand, you should be striving to make sure that for your your client or your audience that it feels like there is a human being on the other end of the relationship and not a machine. Very hard to do these days, right? We're definitely in the age of automation within this digital arena. So one of the things I talk about that, quite frankly, requires no money is to make sure you sit down and spend the time to articulate your brand personality. Right? If you're your company, I don't care if you own a hardware store or a small tech startup. If if if you are a human being or a Nikes case, an athlete, what are the traits and characteristics and values that compose who you are, right? So that's one, too the one thing you have control over, whether it's through your website or social media, or even how your staff says serves the audience, whether it's through bricks and mortar or a call centre, is your written voice, right? Is something that should carry that personality of your brand that should come through, right, even all the way down to your product descriptions. Versus it's just generic, or it lacks distinctions. So I think you have to spend the time first and foremost, to define who you are as a brand. And I always say there's there's three non negotiables in my opinion, regardless if it's a startup and our established brand in terms of I believe bodies of work that you have to create one is you Your Brand house, your brand house is articulating what your belief and purpose is what your mission and vision, right? Where are you going? And how are you going to get there. And finally, what are your values. So that's that's body of work one. The second is your, your brand identity, starting where we started this conversation, the naming your brand, your logo, your brand colours, your typeface, the image that you're trying to create of your brand. And then finally, it really is the soul of your brand, which is articulating your brand personality. If you spend the time, right, as a team, really drafting these these documents that are the North Star, right are in some ways, the lighthouse that's guiding you, you're going to be have a better opportunity to to express human characteristics. And when you do that, I believe you become more personal as a brand. And quite frankly, it plays a strong role in developing your internal culture as well. So take me
Ben Kaplan 21:08
through it for Nike people, I think, have an intrinsic sense of the feel of Nike. But what is the brand house of Nike? What is the brand identity of Nike? What is the personality of Nike that makes it not Adidas, not Under Armour, not, you know, other competitors that want to take Nikes position. And I have a sense for this because I also I grew up in Eugene, which is kind of the birthplace of Nike, we live near the University of Oregon, I live in Portland for many years. And, and Portland, even in what some people don't know. I mean, you know, Nikes, the dominant company in Oregon, but there's a reason why Adidas USA also has their US headquarters in Portland, because it's because, you know, there's a lot of crossover of people, employees, everything like that, as well. So So what is the context of Nike that makes it Nike, and not anyone else?
Speaker 2 21:59
Sure. And you know, this is this is well communicated out in the world. But Nike, the fact that you walk through the door every day as an employee, and every single person is crystal clear, on Nikes mission statement, which is to bring inspiration and innovation to every athlete in the world, and the word athlete has an asterix on it. That's because the asterik means that if you have a body, you're an athlete, so it's all of us. So that's very democratic. Again, it's the spirit adjust to it. So imagine the power of 1000s of employees, being crystal clear on that, and that your your, your higher pursuit is to serve all athletes. And when I talked about, you know, where are you going? And how are you going to get there, how you get there is to bring inspiration and innovation to every athlete, right. And so from a from a brand personality standpoint, what you're trying to articulate is, is the the characteristics and values of, of being an innovator of a person that's very curious and always is willing to learn to get better. Right. And, and someone who is committed to focusing on all the details, no matter how small, you know, and someone that is incredibly collaborative, when I think of, of the Nike brand is so your role when it comes to being a marketer, and communicating is to make sure that you're playing, you're expressing different traits and characteristics at different times in the relationship that you have with your audience, because here's like, for the folks listening, I think it's really important. If you speak the same way, every day, you might become boring or annoying, right? Because human beings aren't, they aren't just one characteristics, and they don't just use one tone of voice. So your personality is a mosaic. And I think over time, the consumer has to feel those different. Those those different characteristics come through. So because a lot of what I'm talking about Ben is, is being relatable, and being feeling a bit more human, as as a brand, right? Even if it is business, to business, I think those nuances and subtleties over time will really contribute to your brand equity, especially the emotional equity that you build in in your brand and how your audience feels about you. The last thing I would say and I on this subject because I think this is really this can be quite empowering for any, any team, right? And it's not I'm not just talking marketers or creatives is I think the brands that go beyond just asking the question of how they want their audience to feel about it. The brand through each interaction, right? Of course, that's 101 of branding is in great creating an impression in your audience's mind, of your, your brand and your products check, you know, but it's the brands, the great brands go beyond that and ask the question, how do we want people to feel about themselves and their ability to achieve their aspirations when they interact with us. And those are our brands, those are empowerment brands, brands that build confidence in the businesses and consumers that they work with and interact with. So ask those questions. And I think, you know, you'll start to uncover new opportunities that have deeper relationships that are more meaningful with your audience that go beyond a series of transactions as
Ben Kaplan 25:53
well. And I want to play for you one that I want to come back to Colin Kaepernick set, but I actually just hearing you talk about being human. Also, you were, again, talking about, you know, making the audience the hero of the story. There's an ad, that's a famous one, and I want to, you know, kind of play it for you here and get your thoughts on it, which is, you know, probably someone a lot of people think who isn't that human just because he has supernatural abilities, which is Michael Jordan. And there's an ad spot where it's, I think it's referred to as failure, where he talks about his mistakes. And I want to talk about through the lens of, obviously, you know, widely considered, you know, greatest basketball player of all time, maybe most iconic athlete of all time. And now, it's a different spin to make it more emotional, relatable. And he said, it's not just the feeling of the product where obviously, can people buy his shoes, I hope they hope they can dunk like him. But let me show you this ad and get your kind of thoughts on it here. So I'm gonna share my screen. So So take me through this one in terms of relatability approachability, there's a lot of Michael Jordan Nike ads, where he's probably, you know, dunking and taken off from the free throw line. And, and all of that. So So what is how does this relate to the emotion? Why is this an effective ad?
Speaker 2 27:06
Right? Well, and thanks for for showing my favourite ad of all time, by the way, when I wasn't part of Oh, really? Oh, yeah. I really, I just think it it shows all of the best characteristics of great storytelling, right, starting with what I talked about earlier, the fact that a team from the widening Kennedy creative agency spent the time with Michael, to learn that he missed 9000 shots, right that they spent the time to learn that 26 times he was asked to take the game winning shot and he missed. So again, you can't have the iconic ad until you spent the time to uncover those truths. And it's pretty amazing back to Michael, that he was willing to reveal that right lost over 300 games and so that that's where that team started, right? And then they revealed it in a very soulful way in terms of how that was shot and using the voice of the goat, right? greatest basketball player of all time, right? In some circles, certainly. And so. And so what happens there? Well, right away, it causes you to reflect on your own life, whether it's personal or professional. And ask yourself the question, are you willing to take the risk to take the shot? When things are on the line? And to me, I think everybody can relate to that idea of success from failure. Right? And so why I like that spot is it really, it really uncovers a truth that's oftentimes hidden. And but when it's revealed by someone of his stature? It it, it unlocks the, I believe, the potential in a really broad audience for them to kind of step forward maybe the following day, they took more risks, and maybe there's company cultures that weren't so afraid of failure, and allowed more experimentation and invention within their, their workplace, even if it never made it to market. And as someone who ran a variety of different brand innovation teams, you know, a lot of the work we created, then we never would never make it to to to the consumer. But we also knew that a lot of the you know, that's the price of innovation, oftentimes failure leads to success down the road. Right. And I think it's really hard to create something that is truly defies the status quo. Um, by getting it right, on the first try. Right? And so,
Ben Kaplan 30:06
what have you in your career? You know, not a lot of folks maybe have risen at a major, you know, fortune 500 company from from intern all the way to to, you know, cmo and the and the leader of, you know, large numbers of teams and 1000s of people. Before we hit your successes, which there's a lot, what's your Michael Jordan add? Meaning if they were going to make the Greg Hoffman version of that? What were the misses the failures, the mistakes that paved the way from Mr. Success? Are there any that you think of that? Like, I didn't quite hit that one, right. But it propelled me forward in your story. Well,
Speaker 2 30:53
what was more about the fact that so much of my early career was me speaking through, figuratively speaking, speaking through my hands, because I was a designer, so I was creating my work and letting the work speak for itself. Right. And so it's, and, you know, I'm a lifelong introvert. So finding my leadership voice, there were many, many starts and stops, right, because I was in a very kind of personal pursuit, as those early days of creating, designing stores and posters and, and, and logos and, and building world building, right, and on that, and launching innovations. And so I was basically keep in mind that I, one day, I'm an intern, and then seven years later, I'm responsible in leading the very team I was interning for. So you could imagine the learning curve there, maybe a little bit of the cynicism I had to deal with as well. So it was really trial by fire. And I that's what I mean by Nike, and brands, like them taking risks on their people, stretching people into positions, maybe even if they're not ready. And so I was allowed to really find my, my leadership, voice, refine my leadership style, over those those years of as my scope of responsibility grew, and I had to lead through not just my actions, but through my words, more and more so. So that's really, you know, I could have just said, you know, what, I'm not up for this. I like the safety of, of, you know, just the drafting table, if you will, or my Mac computer, and I just want to geek out on those designs. But I'm just a big believer that. And I've said this before, right? I mean, complacency is is not only the enemy of creativity, it also prevents you from realising your potential as a leader, and you have to put yourself in uncomfortable situations, right? You gotta leave the safety net. Otherwise, you'll never know if you can make that shot. So that's just a little it was it was ugly. Go for it, Ben.
Ben Kaplan 33:18
No, I was just gonna say it almost sounds like for your career, it almost sounds like the message of a of a Nike ad, right? Have a great one, right? Have the willingness to take the shot, the willingness to try to be great, the willingness to go beyond and do something that you haven't done before and extended, it seems like, you've kind of you approached your career at Nike very much with the voice and the identity of Nike, which speaks a lot for the company, if if the team is embodying the values of the company, even in their own personal trajectory?
Speaker 2 33:54
That's right. It takes a willingness to take the risk and it takes a willingness from the for the company and the company culture to put you in those championship situations, if you will. Right. And, and I so I do think there's, I do think there's a lot of that, that brands large and small can can take from that. And it can it I can't say this enough, because it's easy, you know, we are coming certainly coming out of the pandemic in this this this world of of optimization and efficiency and rightly so, right. It's been a rough ride for a couple years here. But But I guess where I'm going is within a team culture, those traits of risk taking curiosity and empathy are just so so important, right to achieve I think exceptional results as a brand and as a business.
Ben Kaplan 34:55
So, the moment with with really career defining moment this this You know, call it a Colin kapernick campaign. But what's interesting about it and to go back to that ad is a lot of the creative for it, he's sort of present in it, but it features a whole lot of other people. It's not just like, here's our Colin Kaepernick spot, that there are some things like that, but kind of the most famous ad I want to play for you, and I'm gonna kind of keep the sound off because you obviously not know the unwell. And take me through as you watch this, what's going on here, like we opened for instance, with a skateboarder, then we see an error, let me just rather than narrate the whole thing, let me let me, let me just show it to you here, if you can see this again. And explain to me as I play this, what the thought process was, because we, we don't yet know that Colin Kaepernick is in the in this out. So what's happening now?
Speaker 2 35:53
Well, again, this is this is a celebration of just do it and just do it is the democracy, that democracy of sport, if you will, and that again, as I said before, that we all have it in us to to achieve our definition of greatness, whether it's on the court on the track the field, you name it. And it's it's illustrating this through athletes at the professional and Olympic level all the way to athletes, like your next door neighbour, right? And it's showing how powerful the unifying power of sport is. Right. And, and just I think the bigger thing here is that we do a lot of dreaming as children, right. And we dare to dream, if you will, you know, this, right? You're, you're on the court as a kid, and you're emulating your favourite athletes, and you really do believe as you're growing up that you can achieve anything. And then maybe you stop dreaming as much as as you get older, right. And there's a lot of other dimensions to your life that maybe take away that time to play in dream. And so really, this ultimately, is, is a story about dreaming bigger. That's it right and remembering that you don't have to ask permission to dream big, right? And I would say this, that goes for a company culture, the minute you have to ask permission to use your imagination, and dream big, is the day you stop becoming a brand, I believe of inspiration and innovation.
Ben Kaplan 37:46
So what is your thought on I mean, another link give you another company that connects with a motion that has iconic ads. And when I saw that, you know that spot and saw you know, everyone's human being it kind of reminded me of the ad that that company has apple and and if you know the ad spot they have they have one called, you know, Here's to the crazy ones. And you see images of now they're not an athletic, athlete based company. So they're showing Albert Einstein and Gandhi and other people who are Rule Breakers and people who defied convention and had a bigger vision. You watch that ad, you also at least me I feel something watching that, right? You feel like you can do everything. So how do you view when you when you sort of take it out the lens of Nike seeing a motion used by say a company like Apple also makes iconic ads that are remembered, what is your opinion of them and a creative like that?
Speaker 2 38:42
Now you're naming, you know, my second favourite out of all time. Your two for two, I just as as you said, I even today, when I watched that I feel so much. And I've said this before, I truly believe that. Apple believes that everyone has creative capacity, that every single person on this planet, if given the tools and capabilities, can express themselves in creative ways. And I just see you see that through what they've brought into the world. And I think here we are a couple decades beyond when that that story that ad launched think different, which which a lot of that was about defying the status quo and defying convention. And, and and I think, you know, obviously a big message in that moment in time. But you could run that film today. And I believe it would be just just as significant and important and timely right because I think we always have to keep reminding us, as a society, as as humankind, about our what our individuality is Um, our uniqueness, and that that is powerful both in, in your personal life and in your professional life. And oftentimes, these days, you know, it can get into a game of of creating uniformity in your company culture. Right. So, I take so much from the Think Different campaign. And, you know, it gets back to that characteristic as well of being courageous or fearless. Right? I think that's, that's one that I think a brand like Apple or Nike, have have been known for. And it's been consistent trade with within the communication. But again, I'll go back to the this idea of moments versus movements, and and, you know, creating, creating a relationship versus a transaction. And yeah, you're, you're naming brands like Apple and Nike, who, who approach it that way. And look at the relationship as a journey of of helping each other progress. Right to you know, it gets thrown around a lot, right, this idea of, of the best version of yourself, but it's true. Like if you get into that game, where you're literally trying to incrementally move people to become the best version of themselves. That's, that's an incredible, you know, talk about business growth, right? So
Ben Kaplan 41:33
well, and how do you think about that for, let's say that the CMO listening right now, who says, you know, this sounds great. But I also have to, like, I have to meet my KPI, I have to meet my number, I have to meet this metric. And I've got to figure I want to do all these things. But I've also got to drive sales. Because if I don't drive sales, we're not doing this campaign next year. So how do you balance that and you want to, and I get just talking to you, Greg, I get the sense of like, you're creating art, like you're creating great art. I mean, even when you talk about the beginning of your book, when you talk about this, this this this photo that you receive as a gift, and the iconic photographer, who does this photo and how it makes you feel on the emotion that's there, I get that when you watch these these, like a spot that's a commercial, we're trying to sell some shoes and some athletic equipment, but it's great art. And then how do you reconcile with us as we are in a commerce business? And and we can be a great art, if it doesn't sell anything? We've got a problem,
Speaker 2 42:31
no question. And Ben, certainly for any CMO, they're running an offence that has to move in real time at consumer speed. Right, and, and if you're not on time, the your audience is going to go somewhere else. So you know, but everything I talk about on the art, art dimension of brand building, ultimately, to me that the consequence of that is business growth. So what I would say is that a simple mindset one can have in this fast paced world that we live in, right is, is think of your audience as members versus customers. Because if they're members, and they're members of your club, then there should be privileges, privileges, again, as I talked about, that are helping to achieve helping them achieve their aspirations and dreams. It's just a subtle mindset. I'm not talking about a membership programme, I'm just mentally as an individual and as a team. When you think of someone as a member of your team or your club versus a customer. I think you're maybe going to ask some some some different questions as you're releasing content at the speed of sound right? And reading and responding to the consumers desires in the marketplace dynamics. So a lot of what I'm talking about then is just make sure that you start with with a mindset that treats your your customer as more than a number. And I know that seems obvious, but easier said than done. But it has to start with a with a you know, just like your your favourite championship teams. You can't get there without that championship mindset. And for me for a CMO it's just it's making sure and the other thing I like to talk about is that stepping back every now and then and just asking Are you are you making deposits of of into the bank of brand equity? Are you making withdrawals? Right? Because I don't think anything's there's there's no indifference created it's either positive or negative. So So look, I and so because I get this question a lot, right. But so many of the lessons the point to draw from them what are what are the questions and filters one needs to ask either in a day in a month or a quarter within this, you know, speed of light, consumer engagement world that we live in today.
Ben Kaplan 45:21
And I want to end on a couple, get your perspective on a couple of trends, a couple of thoughts, and then and then one piece and then one piece of career advice, but just just just as a finish up. And one trend. I'd love your take on because I think you have a unique vantage point on it is that really the rise of influencer marketing and an influencer being I love your take on it because you you work with a lot of like, you know, some of the biggest influencers in the world, right, the sort of iconic athletes. But in the past few years, the rise of influencer marketing means kind of the democratisation, of who influencers are right. It can be someone that is not famous to everyone, but it's famous to a niche audience. It's someone that has a certain number of social fans or followers. So what is it about? You know, first with celebrity marketing, and now with influencer marketing that provokes emotion, provokes commerce, why is it important? Why have we seen that sort of democratisation of who an influencer is?
Speaker 2 46:20
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a, it's a great question. And I would just start by saying, I live by a mantra don't chase cool. And of course, marketing teams are under incredible pressure, right to find, and sometimes Chase, the latest individual that has the most influence or use the latest social media platform, or capability that is, you know, seems to be the talk of the day in the media. And so there's this, there's this pressure to chase cool. But if, if you do that, more than likely, you won't catch it and your consumer, ultimately is going to know you're faking it. So that's why at the centre of all these decisions, when it comes to influencer marketing is authenticity, can you authentically connect the, it can be the passion, or the values of or the needs of the end, the ambassador you're collaborating with or not. And if you can't do that, then more than likely, it's not an authentic relationship. And that's certainly a filter we always used over the years, right? Whether it's, it's collaborating on product on storytelling, or an experience, right, so it's not so much about the, to me, authentic connection is more important than the, how high the profile is of the individual, right? Because over time, as as I've said before, your authenticity is your cultural currency. And if you lose that, then in the end, you're not going to have the type of status and influence and culture that that you could have had, if you're more diligent in the relationships, you create it. So the bottom line is, is asking those questions in the beginning, as you're exploring who you want to work with, whether it's a, you know, a YouTube star, a high level celebrity, or just someone who's on the verge of becoming, you know, highly notable, trying to find the authentic, shared passion that you might have, right? Do they love your product? Or did they love your brand growing up? Or, you know, what is that versus it's just, you know, it's just a transaction, because as I said, transactions with your consumer are just as bad as transactions with your ambassadors as
Ben Kaplan 49:07
well. And and one other kind of final trend I'd love your take on is this notion of companies taking a more political stance, doing something that that takes an issue and we had, you know, a lot of those come with with socio economic changes, Black Lives Matter. And I think in Nikes history, you have this kind of this juxtaposition, where you have a, you know, an ad featuring Colin Colin Kaepernick, which definitely has a political point of view and a point of view around social injustice. But you also have in the history, even even iconic athletes, like Michael Jordan has a famous quote, Republicans buy sneakers to which he didn't want to polarise people. So, what do you think about this trend now of companies taking more of a stand, and also facing backlash for it? Disney's A famous example right now with people being upset about Disney standard issues, and in Florida, and that impacting even their tax status in Florida. How do you relate all that to that trend? And what brands should do now to navigate all of this?
Speaker 2 50:14
Yeah, well, I, I do believe we're in a time where you can create strong business growth and brand strength, but also help create a better and more inclusive world. I truly believe that. And I don't believe it's a time where indifference is really an option, certainly with your employees, because your employees are living with the news and the images that they're seeing every day. So first and foremost, you have an obligation to address these issues with with your your team, again, that gets down to that trait of empathetic leadership. Secondly, you have to make sure your own house is in order. And what I mean is that everyone is crystal clear on your team or your leadership team. Back to what is your mission and vision? And what do you bring to the world? And what's your promise to your audience, and that that's totally clear as you step up, to use your voice or platform, to try to create action to address one of the pressing issues of the day, if you're unclear, right on your your purpose, then it could be a distraction to your business, if you explore getting involved in in a cause. And so. So that's that, that that's one and then two, you have to make sure, I think, you know, we're, we're using storytelling, but storytelling shouldn't be the default medium of getting engaging in a lot of these these causes. There's so many other ways that you're seeing brands and companies kind of try to create positive change in the world through a variety of methods. But it starts by making sure that, as I said before, that your audience, can you and your audience can connect what you sell to what you believe the world needs in that moment. And if it's confusing, then it might not be the best time for you to engage on that.
Ben Kaplan 52:23
Sure, well, and I want to finish up asking you one question that I don't think people talk enough about. You referenced it. And maybe this is a surprising question we'll see. But I think it hits something you said before, which is if you want to succeed in business, if you want to succeed in marketing, if you want to succeed in your career, and you're an introvert, what do you need to do? What do you need to do? What did you do to succeed? Without people talk about the business place? The workplace is geared towards extroverts agree, disagree? And what did you What did you do?
Speaker 2 53:04
Yes, certainly that, that maybe the traditional organisation, oftentimes left out, you could say the back to that think different campaign, it kind of left out the daydreamers, the quiet voices, right, and quite frankly, the, you know, the underrepresented diverse groups. Okay, so, now, thankfully, we're in a moment in time where that is being addressed. And brands are more aware and more committed to having greater representation around that. And that's why in the book, I do not only talk about, obviously, representation in terms of race, but also in terms of style of leadership. And on that, and, you know, as I say, you know, just just because you have the loudest voice doesn't mean, you're right, you might just be loud. So So for me, and you know, speaking maybe to those those introverts out there, I think you do have to, it does come down to risk taking, and the more you put yourself out there, the more comfortable you become. And I think you really back to what I was talking about, about the brand personality and the characteristics, you need to write down what you want to be famous for. And what are your mantras and what do you believe and have have that start to guide the way you you convey your direction and on that, and before you know it, it will really become second nature. You know, over the years, you know, to go from someone who, who was someone who was looked at as someone just oh, that's the creative guy. Well, you can either just stay in that At one dimensional silo, or you can address it, but you have to, I think, again, figuratively or literally write down what you want to be known for. So when you're not in the room, and your name goes up on the wall, you close the distance between what you believe and what those who live with your leadership belief. Does that make sense?
Ben Kaplan 55:26
It does. If I was going to paraphrase what you said, just as important as the brand you create for the company, what is your personal brand? Say? What are you leaving with people that last that builds, and we have to be brand builders at the macro level, and also brand builders at the micro level. And to build your brand, you have to know what you stand for. Because how are you going to build it otherwise?
Speaker 2 55:52
Well said, Ben, we spend so much time on the brands we serve, but very little of the brand of you, like you know, us. And that's why you know that I do take people, the teams that I lead and also, you know, I'm i I'm the branding instructor at the University of Oregon's Graduate School of Business. And I take them through the exercise of not only creating, you know, the brand house and the brand characteristics of this product or service they want to bring to the world, but of themselves as well. Because ultimately, if you get into that practice and refine it over the years, you will achieve the best version of yourself as a leader, as
Ben Kaplan 56:36
well. And, and you need and you did when you even took it to the next level. Because your advice is, which is great advice, which is write down what you stand for what you want you read to be you went a step further, and of course, wrote a motion by design and wrote a whole book by it. And then the final thing I want to end on is for the book, three of your favourite guiding principles, which you've identified as things that you stand for. And one of them is that creativity is a team sport. Two is dare to be remembered. And three is leave a legacy, not just a memory, I want to wrap up, why are those your guiding principles? And why does that, you know, represent principles that our audience should take away and implement in their next marketing campaign for their company, but also just in their life?
Speaker 2 57:18
Yeah, well, it all great question. And it is both professional and personal. And to create those type of deep emotional bonds between a brand and an audience or product and people, you need to support and lean into and celebrate the creative practices in your business that are oftentimes responsible for those emotional connections. And so that's why when I say creative creativity, as a team sports, it takes everyone in the company, right and left brain thinkers, you know, the people on the data and analytics side and the people on maybe the brand marketing and design side in the innovation side, working together. And I have a lot of different analogies that I lay out in the book about how you can create better chemistry better, and radically collaborate as a team, but that everybody plays a role in that not just people who are great artists, okay, that's the, that's such an ancient definition. So we all have a role to play in, in that process. And so that's creativity is a team sport, you know, dare to be remembered, is creating stories and experiences that will never be forgotten. Well, why are they not forgotten, because you've touched people deep inside them, right. And you've stirred their emotions in ways and so I lay out ways you can achieve that. And then finally, leave a legacy, not just a memory, right, and I'll say it again, good brands, great moments, great brands, great movements, so but what I really get into in the book is using your your position and platform as a brand and as a individual leader, not just to to, of course, drive great business growth, and brand awareness, but also take the opportunity that you have to close the distance between those that have privileged and those individuals and communities that are underserved, that maybe don't have access and opportunity for what you bring into the world for your products and your services. So I think we're in a moment in time where the brands that are also looking to break down those barriers are the brands that are leaving a legacy. And so my message to everybody is, is leave your legacy that will never be forgotten.
Ben Kaplan 59:53
And just like a great Nike ad, dare to be great. Do something great. and strive for more, well said, Greg Hoffman, thank you so much for joining us on top cmo and thank you for all that you do to continue to leave your legacy for the next generation of branders. And marketers.
Speaker 2 1:00:12
Thank you, Ben. It's been an absolute pleasure, pleasure, and I've loved the conversation.
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