TOP CMO: Emily Ketchen, Lenovo - 'Customer-First Strategy Shift'

Emily Ketchen  00:00

Sometimes you get hyperbole and energy and you're not really sure what are we actually solving name the problem often therein lies the solution.

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Ben Kaplan  00:08

This is the podcast where we go around the globe to interview marketing leaders from the world's biggest brands, fastest growing companies and most disruptive startups.

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Ben Kaplan  00:23

This is TOP CMO with me, Ben Kaplan. today I'm chatting with Emily Ketchen, who serves as CMO of the intelligent devices group at Lenovo $62 billion technology powerhouse. Emily has held senior marketing roles at Dell and HP, where she championed omni channel strategies and led brand growth. With a rich agency background including time at McCann, catalysis and gray. Emily has a history of steering key accounts and spearheading creative initiatives. But how does she balanced the art and science of marketing at global scale? And what strategies does she employ to break down silos and foster innovation? Let's find out with Emily Ketchen. Emily, you've been at Lenovo about three years. And right now you're embarking on a marketing transformation. What does that mean? And how did you sort of get to this point after your trifecta of years to be like, let's transform this thing.

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Emily Ketchen  01:22

So Ben, great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Lenovo, is really focused on accelerating our marketing transformation. Think of it is from a primarily product and campaign focused to much more of a customer centric, really digital first approach. And that is all intended to support our broader brand and business transformation from a Top PC maker to a tech solutions leader. So the the joy and the ambition. And the opportunity for me was to be able to come into this organization and help lead that marketing transformation, both Ben from an internal perspective and an external perspective. And that was just a huge opportunity for me to be able to drive impact in an organization that is going through a transformation like this one.

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Ben Kaplan  02:20

And just to read between the lines there. I mean, it makes sense that if you're a product company, you're going to do your marketing focused around products and campaigns. That makes sense. But once you become and start shifting to become a solutions company, now you have to really understand customers. And so it makes sense to shift that. So is that a difficult shift to do? Just culturally? Is it different because you have companies that grow up as well, we are a customer or client focused entity, everything we do is built around customers and clients. And that takes sometimes years or decades to get to, is it hard to kind of culturally do that shift? You know,

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Emily Ketchen  03:00

I think it can be really hard to create those kinds of shifts. But in my experience, and the real opportunity here is to create a vision for where we can go right, we're the number one PC maker in the world. You're absolutely right. A lot of our work was focused on telling those kinds of stories. And we know that the future and the vision for ourselves is to be a leader in services and solutions. And so how do you harness the real opportunity there to be able to tell those stories in a different way. And one of the things that became clear to me is we needed to understand our customers better you hit the nail on the head there, Ben. And what we did when I first joined the organization, is we set up a customer insight Coe, or center of excellence. And we brought together all of the different resources in the organization around insights from the very start of the process to understand customers. And to understand what they're facing. Ben, imagine everyone has gone through a significant transformation post pandemic, we learned how to work from home, play from home, educate ourselves and our children from home. So the reality is, how do we help companies and individuals transform by listening and by understanding what's important to them? What's important to customers, leading us back to the customer, insight, Coe? And so that in particular, has been a real opportunity to hone our skills in listening to customers. Also things like brand trackers, how are you making sure that you have the latest and greatest information about your brand and that you instrument that in the right way. You have all your key objectives in terms of where you're going and where you want to go? Because at the end of the day, we want to be able to measure our progress. And then the customer insights CLB also helps us test and think through our creative executions. I'm Ben, I might really like a creative execution. But it might not be right for my target audience. We think a lot about Gen Z, for example, and, you know, marketing to Gen Z is a different kind of marketing, we're also spending a lot of time marketing to businesses, marketing to businesses is different. Today, a lot more emotion is required, a lot more thoughtfulness is required. So those kinds of things have really paid off in terms of having a center of excellence across the entire organization that really helps our marketers to think through the right message for the right audience. So when you can affect a transformation, and there are resources or value, and we're actually doing two things, we're doing a better job of marketing. But we're also upskilling, our organization, that's a win win in my mind. So I wouldn't underestimate how hard it is. But I think anchoring to progress, and certainly progress in the context of a cov and progress in the context of showing people how well the work works, when you get it out into the market, and you get a response from clients or from customers. So it is not easy. But it has been really, really inspirational to lead a team, you know, in this context of huge amounts of change. And the truth is, the landscape is changing. And so we're not alone, right? Business is changing post pandemic era is really, you know, has settled in. I personally think b2b is having a moment, we could talk more about that. But, you know, it's one of those things where you have an opportunity in a role to make a huge difference and effected change. And that really is what inspires me every day. How

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Ben Kaplan  06:44

do you think about your specific role as CMO and for this marketing transformation to occur? What can you not afford to get wrong? What is like you'd like to get it right? But you know, if you don't get it perfect, we'll be fine. And what is like something that you know, maybe others, maybe yourself in a past incarnation, think, Hey, this is really important, but it's not the critical thing. Now, how do you make sure that you put first things

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Emily Ketchen  07:13

first, boy, that that is a great question. And I think it all comes down to prioritization, you cannot do everything. And so you have to be really thoughtful, and really ready to make tough choices about what you will do, and you won't do. So something like listening to your customers, you can't get that wrong, and you imbue those insights into everything you do, all the way down into the products that you build in the context of how you do that for your organization, you need to make sure that the stories that you tell in the marketplace are anchored to the values of the organization. So it areas like human centered innovation, in other words, innovating for people not innovating for the sake of innovation, making sure that we are telling the story around Lenovo goes, you know, entire line and entire family of products that are all about smarter technology. For all we are deeply ingrained in democratization of technology and making sure that we make that accessible to all. So three or four center points that you focus on Ben, and you have to get those right. So I would say a big part of it is setting up the levels of expertise, creating the vision for the team, putting the right products and marketing into market, and then measuring to make sure that you're learning and optimizing along the way. I think learning and listening cannot be underestimated. Especially if you're a new CMO coming into a company in a pandemic, I didn't meet my team for nine months face to face. So that's another layer of truly understanding a culture and understanding what will advance the agenda for our brand and really having a sense of what that is and prioritizing that top to bottom. Emily

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Ben Kaplan  08:59

in the context of prioritization in the context of putting first things first you and I have chatted in the past about the need for CMOs to be more tactical than ever before. So have you had to up your technical game? How are you thinking about your technical skills? Now?

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Emily Ketchen  09:16

I think every CMO in the world has had to up their technical game. I feel super, super privileged to be in a technology company where we talk about technology all day every day. And I think it's been a huge help to me. The reality Ben is that you have to understand the role of technology in marketing. How are you using technology to improve your own marketing from listening to your ad tech stack, your Mar tech stack, your sales tech stack, so that you understand what the products are that you have how all of the data flows, you know, as a CMO needs to be able to understand not the necessary ins and outs of every detail but How does the data lake connect into your CDP connect into your content flow, and exit through a drip program that leads to ABM, all of which are a lot of acronyms. But they're really important in the context of how you use technology to get your message out really efficiently, really effectively and understand what your customers are saying back to you. We know CMOs are under a tremendous amount of pressure to be able to share the return on investment of the marketing spend to the C suite, right to our partners who are CFOs, and to our partners who are CEOs who want to understand the efficacy of that marketing spend that's happening. technology, data tools, will help us to do that. And so I find it incredibly inspiring. I'm a learner, and I'm super curious by nature. But I'm constantly trying to understand more Ben and think about things like we're facing a pretty big industry moment in time. That is about let's just say the example of the deprecation of a third party cookie. It has huge implications for marketers, and it's very technical, you need to be fluid, you need to be able to ask the right questions of agency partners, experts, consultants, you know, whomever it is that you use, I think the ability to listen and to ask great questions. And to really be an avid learner is super important in the context of the role of technology for CMOs, no doubt about it. The

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Tom Cain  11:29

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Tom Cain  11:47

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Tom Cain  12:19

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Ben Kaplan  12:28

mentioned before b2b is having a moment. Do you mean that in the context of things like third party cookie, just the nature of the mechanics of advertising or marketing? Do you mean that in the context of oil mentioned something that a lot of people talk about in the pandemic, which this convergence of sort of B to B, and B to C experience that maybe in your b2b offering or solution or app, you expected more of a b2c experience, whether you're using Slack or zoom or something else, because everyone was suddenly working from home. And those tools were converging in unexpected ways. Here's another way we're maybe having a moment. I'll give you a third example. Which is generative AI. So how are we going to use cat GPT? are similar? Is it going to change our marketing productivity? Is it going to change how we interface with customers? And now we're going to be chatting with them automatically. So are those all part of your moment? Or do you mean something else?

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Emily Ketchen  13:22

I think you've articulated it really well. Actually, I think you're spot on in the context of, first of all, what are the expectations around the experience b2b and b2c? My point about b2b having a moment is it's the expectation is, and the truth is, it's far more emotionally charged than it used to be people are people in b2b is not some foreign land full of businesses. Businesses are full of humans, humans are humans. And so creating a relationship, adding value, and helping them in the experience. The first part that you talked about, I think, is absolutely spot on. It's also fair to say that great creative in b2b really stands apart. We think about having conversations with our customers that are interesting and humorous and topical, and not just about the sort of wholesomeness that could be considered b2b, I think there's a huge opportunity to really elevate that. And we're seeing a tremendous amount of traction around that. I also think, to your point about new and emerging technologies, there's no doubt that AI and generative AI are going to have an impact there. I think there's still a lot to watch and see, I actively encourage people to use it, chat GPT to understand it, to try it to see what it can do to see what it can generate AI is certainly not a flash in the pen, right. It's here to stay and I'm excited to see Ben where it helps marketers. I think there's a ton of potential applications where AI in general will be very, very helpful to marketers whether it A content generation imagery generation, how you test at scale more quickly, your messages, how you optimize how you look at things in new and creative in different ways. I expect it to be very additive, I think what's going to be interesting, there is also layers of compliance and making sure organizations are using it in the right way. And I think it's really important for companies to have a policy as best they can with you know how quickly this is emerging. Maybe you have a counselor or committee on how you're thinking about using it in the marketing organization. Also, it's a wonderful moment in time, then for everybody to immediately become a student, learn, test, prepare, read, it's fascinating. It's exciting. None of us has all of the answers. But I think it's, it's a huge moment in time for society at large. And also for marketers, what will it look like a year from now? And the other thing, and I'd be curious to get your thoughts on this, it changes all the time. You know, you have conversations with luminaries all the time, what do you see as changing? And how does that? How is that affecting what you're hearing about AI?

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Ben Kaplan  16:09

First of all, Emily, great job as a podcast host asking me the question back. So number one, fantastic. And two, I actually do have a thought on this. One thing that gets overlooked about generative AI and what its impact is, and what we need to exploit it is the fact that a lot of these like learning models, they operate on large sets of data. So the way it learns, if we're going to have the Lenovo data set, or the you know, TOP Agency data set, or our podcast production company, the TOP Thought Leader dataset, whatever that dataset is, you actually need a lot of really good quality data for these learning models to learn. So this idea of how are we managing our internal data set that might be proprietary, might not be for anyone else, we might need to protect it. But we need it at high quality, we need it labeled a certain way. How do we know if it's learning that it's learning off this set of marketing documents that is truly Lenovo best in class? And not that other set of documents that was like, really wasn't our best? We weren't that pleased. But we did it because we had a ship and get it out the door? What's it learning on? So this notion of I think, for businesses, where we all became publishers, like we're publishing white papers, and social media content, everyone's a publisher. Now, suddenly, when we can have our own learning models generated by all of us, our data collectors, and it's going to be different, because we're going to be able to learn and exploit tools like general bad better, if we're really good at maintaining data that we can use and learn from.

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Emily Ketchen  17:42

I'm super glad that I got a chance to ask you that, because I actually think your audience is going to really love the answer there. It's such a complex area. One thing I would say out of your perspective, Ben, that's really clear to me is isn't all of that going to require a tremendous amount more compute power. And so that's why when I think about AI and generative AI, there's elements of that that are what does it mean for marketers? What does it mean for companies? How much of that data to your very well made point should remain proprietary? But then what is the opportunity for companies like ours to be a part of the solution of how on earth do you manage the computational needs of all of that data up to the cloud and back and securely, right? Those are super important elements of it. So very fun to just take a little Sidewinder on that one. But I think you're absolutely right. And I think people want to hear about and talk about AI, because it's so topical, and it's everywhere. And all of us as marketers, and professionals, and experts need to know the edges of this and learn it and spend time in it and think about what the implications are for our businesses and for our careers. And it sounds very banal, to say function, but the areas of expertise in our organization and marketers are experts. And so I think it's going to be super fascinating to see where it takes us. And we're just at the very beginning, and how

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Ben Kaplan  19:10

much time given that at some point, you know, time becomes our most precious commodity and exploring the frontier, exploring where things are going, you know, everyone says is important to do, but it's tough to have time to do it. Because usually, that's not feeding necessarily into quarterly KPIs, earning reports, meetings of the board, maybe a little bit, but usually, it's not the questions they're asking you or analysts or investor relations or whatever it might be. So how much time do you spend thinking, learning, imagining what might be and how much can you really not do that because you got things you got to deliver in 2023?

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Emily Ketchen  19:50

It's an interesting question. I think the the temptation is perhaps not to spend as much time as we should there. However, in a technology company like ours, a huge amount of our resources go to areas like r&d, we just announced, we're going to spend a billion dollars on research and development around AI over the course of the next several years. You cannot be in an organization like this and not be focused on and dedicated to the future. So for me, it's something I will be very honest man, I wish I had more time and more hours in the day to spend learning, thinking and researching. But I certainly try to make it a priority for every single day, so that we're always on the learning agenda. And we're always thinking about what's next technology companies, in my mind, have a responsibility to use technology for good to change the world for good. It's part of why I love you know, our entire thesis around smarter technology for all it's what we stand for, as a company. And it's what we live by. So to be able to deliver that you have to have the knowledge and you have to be thirsty for research and learning and trying to understand all of the sides of technological advances. Because I think sometimes people are worried that it's not always for good. You remember, however many years decades ago, the Internet was going to replace the world. Right? It didn't happen. In many ways. It's made us much better. But I do think that's a bit of a conundrum around technology. And I am very much at the center of trying to stay on top of that learning curve, and really pressing into making sure that not only am I doing that, but that I'm sharing that. And I'm sharing that vision today, we had an all hands, for example, with our team. And there were 500 of us on a call. And this very point came up, how do we continue to be learners on the topic of AI. And we talked a lot about how we do that as a team. And so I think for us, it's very much in our DNA as a company. And it's very much in what is super important to me in terms of learning and staying on top of what's new, and what's coming.

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Ben Kaplan  22:03

What I last looked about 77,000 employees and Lenovo, how many people are in your marketing group.

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Emily Ketchen  22:10

I always say six to 700 in there, six

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Ben Kaplan  22:15

to 700 people in there, and a company of 77,000 to do the kind of marketing transformation that you want, is that difficult, because at some point, you're kind of a big ship, big chips don't stop on a dime, they're harder to turn, particularly if you're going to be like we're a products company. And now we're a solutions company, which isn't a complete 180. But I'd probably say that's like a 90 degree turn or at least a 45 degree turn, we're kind of steering. So how difficult is it to enact change? And what are your tools as a CMO to do that, even if you got brilliant idea, great plan, great direction, we know where to go, doesn't mean we automatically all go there.

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Emily Ketchen  22:58

I am super, super impressed with the team that we have here. And I have found that the organization has had a huge appetite for this transformation. And I wasn't sure about that coming in Ben. So I think it's it's a fair question on your side, I have found that folks have really leaned into what I would talk about as my own philosophies around the art and a science of marketing, being students of life of humanity and of our customers. And so painting that in the context of opportunity has been hugely, hugely rewarding. And I have found that our teams have really leaned into that, coupled with a real passion for technology and the pace of technology. It's allowed us to accelerate in ways that I think have been extraordinary. And again, we're trying to transition from a primarily product and campaign focused mindset to a customer and digital mindset. And, you know, people could resist that. But the truth is, it's all about the power of data, and making sure people understand that and driving toward a full customer journey. And so I have found a ton of appetite in the organization to learn more about that to be a part of the conversation and to advance the agenda for the company in a way that has been really really rewarding from my perspective as somebody who is leading this level of transformation at this speed.

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Tom Cain  24:33

Okay, so here's what I'm thinking. It's a Western with a sci fi twist but there's also a film noir plot running in the background. Dinosaurs because why not right. Take the dinosaurs down a little bit. Okay, now Dinosaurs. But a little bit of romance is always welcome.

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Tom Cain  25:09

And zombies. Yeah, we have to throw some zombies in there. Your vision, our craft, topthoughtleader.com. Listen to the first draft again, back to the show.

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25:25

What tool or resource or skill?

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Ben Kaplan  25:29

Do you wish you had at your disposal that you don't have now? No organization has everything? No CMO is perfect. What do you wish you had? or greater ability to do or greater resource? What do you need moving forward?

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Emily Ketchen  25:42

As you could make a 25th? hour? I would really appreciate that this going back to John,

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Ben Kaplan  25:48

I have I have no, no, I can't do that. But besides time, is there anything else like organizationally, I mean, when you do a transformation, sometimes you realize, oh, shoot, we're in silos, we have clear new goals. But we don't have ways to track them. We don't have metrics we're trying to this just shifted what are the either resources or data or tools or teams you wish you had more?

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Emily Ketchen  26:13

I think the examples that you gave are very, very good. We broke down a ton of silos to get to where we are. But there is work to do there, Ben. And I would love to see us continue to break down those silos. And truly, truly embrace all that one team has to bring to the table. Right. So that's the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is I am working on it. I'm not super patient, so wanting to get there faster. And that's not necessarily a single area. But resources, more resources would always be helpful to be able to get us there a bit quicker, right? Making sure that you bring everybody along with you, when you're when you're leading a transformation like this. A lot of the training that we've done and upskilling that we've done has been in partnership with some incredible organizations, including the AMA, boy, do I wish we had more time to do things like spend time learning, discussing, brainstorming? That is something I feel like from my agency world, Ben, we did that all the time brainstorming around campaigns, getting into a row brainstorming around strategies, and I don't know if it's the pandemic that that maybe kept us away from one another in that context. But that isn't that is something having time to just think with your teams and brainstorm and poke at the edges. It feels like we're, a lot of times were managed by the calendar, 30 minutes, 20 minutes, 10 minutes, we're off. So those are some things I would say from a from a pure resource perspective. I think the current state in that sounds very, it sounds very cold is probably okay, where we are, I feel, you know, I think that that is probably okay. It's more around areas like being able to truly expand our ability to integrate as an organization and brainstorm through and solution together more often.

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Ben Kaplan  28:10

And what do you take from I mean, you've had a long history in this particular vertical, different angles on it, of course, but whether that's HP or Dell, or Toshiba, all places you've been, what do you take from each of those companies now to help you accelerate the marketing transformation you're doing at the moment,

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Emily Ketchen  28:30

I have the great gift of having many decades in my experience. And so each and every one of those experiences organization's taught me something different, and many different things that I've taken with me, at every step of my career, to learn to be a better leader, to learn to be a better listener, to learn to be a better marketer, to take into account things that people don't always talk about, Ben, like the benefits of being vulnerable, the benefits of being open with your team, the benefits of really developing your listening skills and honing those skills, making sure that when you're being persuasive, about change that needs to happen. You're doing it at the right times, and in the right ways. I've had the great fortune in the discussions that you've discussed, or the companies that you've discussed, of working for a number of different cultures, including cultures outside of this country, I've lived in eight different countries around the world myself. I think being a citizen of the world, being able to listen and understand how to represent your customers, to your company is a gift that each of the experiences has given me that I continue to build on. We're never finished learning. We're never finished improving upon ourselves. And each of those experiences weaves itself into the fabric of my own values, and who I am and how I choose to lead. You

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Ben Kaplan  29:55

mentioned a lot of softer skills, we started the conversation and maybe to wrap up with that Hey, CMOs needs to be more technical than ever, right? We're talking about the science of it. You talked about the art and the science, a lot of those are softer skills, right? Just interpersonal skills, skills that would serve you well, in any type of organization in a lot of aspects of life, just generally speaking, aside from business as well. So what's your split art and science? 100%? Is Emily, if you have to make that split? What does that split for you into the art side? And the science side? Technical, non technical, hard, soft? How are we want to break it up? How would we best understand you

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Emily Ketchen  30:36

bet I would love to tell you 5050, because I would love to have those skills really well balanced? The truth is, it depends on what I'm working on trying to solve, do I lean into those softer skills and pull from that cadre of experiences that I have? Or is it a situation where I'm going into a technical discussion, I'm going to tee up our story arc in a very technical event, then I'm going to lean into the science side, possibly more. I think the key is, as a really well rounded executives, you need to know how to communicate with people from where they are. And that means you're understanding whether your technical skills are going to get you where you need to be or your softer skills are going to get you where you need to be. And if you look at just in general, understanding people's motives, understanding their interests and understanding the outcomes, it gives you a really good frame on what are the skills I'm going to use, I would say naturally, Ben, I probably lean a bit more into the art and into the softer the creativity, the messaging management, I love the part of my job that is leading people and seeing them accelerate in their careers. But equally, I'm super inspired, and stimulated by everything that technology and science have to bring to bear, which I think is why I love what I do so much.

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Ben Kaplan  32:07

And I'll make the question even more complex for you. This isn't for you to answer, but I'll say what if it wasn't even binary, I know CEOs, I know CMOs, who their approach to solving a problem is not even hard, technical or soft, interpersonal, it's like they solve things by tapping into their network, their like, you know, they their net worth is literally the net stands for network, and they're gonna be like, I'm gonna go talk to 10 or 15 other people who I know who I respect who have been where I've been before, I'm gonna pull their collective wisdom, and I'm gonna solve a problem. And some people sell things like that, and others we've spoken to, and not even just in business, but government leaders, organizational leaders, others, they solve the problem by getting more out of their teams, they're really good at getting people to do more, become more, be more, and they solve problems that way. So I'll give you the last word on how can we as CMOs and marketing leaders solve problems better? It seems like there's many ways to solve a problem. There's many approaches, there's many strategies, maybe all of us are sort of predisposed to certain methods. But you know, when you get a really hard problem, and you've got to solve it, how do you go about and what advice can you give for anyone else? Who might say like, Oh, I'm gonna try a little bit of a Emily catchin on this one. It's not my natural, but I heard it on the TOP CMO podcast, let me try that what would be your advice for solving a really hard problem?

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Emily Ketchen  33:30

I think the key to solving any kind of a difficult problem is understanding the problem. And I learned from a leader years and years ago that one of the greatest values is to name the problem. So that's a great place to start, right? Because sometimes you get hyperbole and energy and worry and fear and you're not really sure what what are we actually solving for and to get somebody to really be able to be a good investigator to understand the edges of the problem, often therein lies the solution. And you can get little indicators of what it actually is that we're trying to solve for. So I would say, listening and deconstructing the problem a little bit, naming it very clearly. And then understanding what's at stake, you highlight a great point about using your network. And one of the things I was really intentional about when I came here, you know, two and a half, three years ago, starting over was to build that internal network. And I built myself an internal board of people who I thought would be honest with me, who would help me understand what things meant in this organization. And likewise, I had the opportunity to build one externally through a training program that I went through, where there were just 18 of us, and they have all become kind of my own CMO consulting groups. We are on chat groups, and we asked each other for help. So it's the internal frame Ben and the external frame, but also really paying attention to the question I used to be thrown early in my career by, there's going to be a question I can't answer. That's the whole idea is you're not supposed to answer it, try to figure out what actually is the question or what actually are you trying to solve for? And then work it from there. No one person has the answer to every question. And so I think you've highlighted an excellent point, which is whether you lead into the science or whether you lead into the art, whether you're emotional, or whether you're rational, the true skill is in being able to listen and to communicate and to know who just happened to where, which is a little bit about what I referenced earlier in, what skills are you going to pull on that you've had that you've developed a new grown over your whole career that will help you in any situation that you're in? Oh,

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Ben Kaplan  35:49

and I liked your example about the power of naming, which we do a lot on the PR and marketing and storytelling side. It's not so much for instance, Emily that we don't know what to watch on, you know, streaming channels tonight is that we have Netflix indecision disorder. That's the problem. We've just named it there. There's power in naming. So when you go home tonight, tell your your family sipping over No, no, we just have Netflix indecision disorder. I love it. There's great power in that. I have jokingly say that but I think I had that last night. Ben.

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Emily Ketchen  36:23

Ben, there's a new acronym there. It's the NDD.

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Ben Kaplan  36:27

Okay, well, thank you a delight to chat with you. We had Emily Ketchen, CMO at Lenovo, the intelligent devices group and one we had a far ranging conversation from what do you focus on and a little bit of marketing philosophy and the art and the science. Thank you for your thoughtfulness. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show and best wishes for continued success.

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Emily Ketchen  36:48

Thank you, Ben. Great to be here. Super appreciate it.

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Tom Cain  36:55

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