Cindy White 0:00
Marketing doesn't have any boundaries. Marketing makes businesses more successful. Marketing helps you uncover social causes. Marketing is the science and the art. So you get to be data driven, and you get to be creative in any given day.
Ben Kaplan 0:20
Free to these viral, great ideas packaged a certain way want to spread, they want to be told to someone else positioning, branding execution to spread your message, one across our brands to spread, it will be simple, surprising, and significant. This is top cmo with me, Ben Kaplan, Cindy, first of all, thanks for being on the podcast, you identify yourself as a sort of a brand forward CMO, you think about branding, you think about what that means before you start executing tactics. So how do you think about the the my tech brand? And how do you get others on your team all lined in the same direction?
Cindy White 0:58
Yeah, thanks, Ben. And it's just so great to be with talking with you today. brand forward definitely is a part of me that I bring to most organisations. And I think it started because of my background and fast moving consumer goods, and the fascination with how consumers identify with a brand. I've been able to bring that through into the technology positions that I've had and hosted and bringing it to the team is really around slowing down understanding what it is that we do that is market driven. And how can we absolutely get everybody in the company on board with that. And the easiest way to do that is to know why and then think about what it means to our our personas are buying consumer, and then really just obsessing about what that is, I like to think about it as personifying the persona, giving the person a name, giving them a process, personality, and just obsessing about what they do in the day. What did they read? Where did they go? How do they think? And it just really just takes the subjectivity out of it. The brand of high tech is in sorry, go ahead.
Ben Kaplan 2:12
No, no, I was gonna I was gonna ask you on that point. It's very in vogue now for b2b companies, tech companies to say, Yeah, we don't love our branding. I wish we were more like a consumer company or life, we want to mark it like that. And you haven't really background working in, you know, sort of consumer, restaurants, hospitality brand. A lot of people know early on your career yum brands, which is like, you know, the owner, things like KFC and Pizza Hut. First of all, how does that inform you now, you've had a long history career in technology, whether it's places like like Microsoft, or a fin tech company, like FICO or others should, how does that that early experience really inform you now instead, they're actually more b2b marketers who have this like pure b2c experience in their career.
Cindy White 3:00
I personally think it has informed me and shaped my career. And I would love for everybody who's in technology to have had a start in what I consider to be classic branding, long before the internet was a thing and television advertising was our way in which we communicated, we had to be really precise, and as competitive environment of burgers, and, and really think about what it is that we want our consumer to think act and feel at that moment when they saw your advertising. So it's a split second, that has a lasting implication on the on the health of the business. And really just getting to the point where every advertising piece of communication, whether it's a word or a design, how long you've split the burger to look fresh, that they're going to make that decision in that split second. Similarly, in today's world, fast forward to the plethora of just digital communication that any person at any given day, it's like a tsunami of messages that we get this a split second, where suddenly your brand, your piece of communication is intentional, it's relevant, and it makes sense for them, and they want to take the action, they want to click on it. And so the thought process of thinking through their persona, and what they're doing at any given point of time to make the decision is what I've carried through into the technology marketing. And we find ourselves in an industry today, identity that's highly competitive, and pretty parity when you think about what the product itself can do. So what's the difference that we make in that person's life when they're choosing us versus a competitor? So I would, you know, go back to the start of your question, absolutely wish that most technology marketers could start off in a consumer world where they get to make that decision for consumers and to think for consumers so that they make it with them,
Ben Kaplan 4:54
but how you view them with maybe a challenge that was sometimes obvious You're asked as a marketer myself, which is going to different companies. And there are companies that are brand forward or marketing for companies, of course, in every industry, but then there are something like this is an engineering lead company, right? They are not thinking about branding and all that maybe they brought you in Cindy, because they need to think more about that, right. They need to they need to bring in that perspective. So, how do you align people on on that, and you think about it when say, you know, your long career at Microsoft, you let the consumer launch of office 365. And when you have a bunch of other people that aren't thinking in this way that are, you know, suggesting it and they're like, Yeah, you know, we gotta, we gotta make office boots, like, let's make it let's make this more sexy, we want to make this awesome. How do we do it? They don't know anything about it, they want to do that? How do you sort of align them? And what do you do?
Cindy White 5:48
You've used the word DNA, and you've got to own who you are. It's kind of like your own brand, your brand self, who are we what makes me up my DNA, when you think about it in a business term in office is a great example. You know, the folks developing the product wanted to be sexy, and they wanted to have all the sizzle. But at the end of the day, it's a utility office was a utility. And it's when we decided, at that point in time, that we were highly functional brand, that we started to resonate with our consumer and with our bias, be they in small businesses and medium businesses and consumers, they all started to realise that too, we on identified with it. So I would, you know, I like to think while we slow it down. And and let's just own that, let's own who we are, make it relevant, and make that shine as opposed to trying to be everything to everyone just own what you are is kind of where my starting point goes. And tell
Ben Kaplan 6:49
me so you're at my tech now. Yeah, it's it's a different landscape, because it's a fast growing company. But it's not the size of a Microsoft. Right? It's so it's a different kind of dynamic. And tell me why at my tech I've heard, tell me this true that everyone wants to know what p x was Pete? And why is he so influential? And is the CEO know that Pete's floating around? And is he concerned about
Cindy White 7:18
that? Yeah. And it is an internal secret. But we absolutely personified our buyer, who's a product manager, product director, he owns the product inside a financial institution, like a bank. And he makes the decision on what technology he's bringing on to his platform that enables customers to open an account and get into the banking app or into the banking environment as quickly as possible. And he is wanting to do that. But he also wants to hold up fraud. And so the only way that we can give Pete What he wanted was to get the whole company this think about the product marketer, the sorry, the product manager, what does he want. And so we named him when we give him a name. And we understand what he does in his day, we understand the challenges. He's got to think about regulation, he's got to think about optimising costs, he's got to think about workflows, he's got to think about what his consumer thinks at that point of time when they come on. And by personifying the persona, we could go right back to the developers and the r&d. And we could say, this is what they thinking right? Now, this is the relevance, we could bring that through into product development, we bring it through into the way in which our customer success people work with their customers. And at the end of the day, when you personify and think for your customer, you take the subjectivity, out of any decision making, and it all becomes about the customer. So we started in the marketing division that quickly went into the product team. And now it's across the leadership team, and everybody thinks about our customer in a name, and that's P.
Ben Kaplan 8:52
Well, it's interesting how you've done that, because I think, you know, typically, you go through a branding exercise where a branding agency at top, so we go through, and we often do personas, and there can be some slides that have certain identities of certain folks, and you think about it, but it sounds like you've actually, you know, it's not just like a slide in a deck or a way to thinking about you're really everyone from top leadership on down is thinking like putting themselves in people's shoes and trying to think like that person. So that's interesting how you've done that. And, and it's also interesting. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, this idea of like, objective decision making versus subjective decision making. So subjective decision making, because a lot of times you'd be the technology company and they wouldn't people wouldn't say that the way you get objective. As you think about Pete, they say the way you get your objectives, you think about data, here's what the data should like. And I can see this, I can see how they're engaged. I can see how they're clicking, I can see sales. I want to measure that. But then you're actually saying there's another way to be objective, which is through this understanding of our customers. So how do you balance those two things of like, data gives us insight and objectivity, but also customers understanding by understanding that persona or personifying the persona as you say, all So gives us that objectivity and decision?
Cindy White 10:03
Yeah, it's a great question because we, when you're in such a competitive and high growth category, like identity right now, the product feature and the product benefits at some point are pretty similar. And yeah, there's going to be a few that are different and innovation is going to happen. And then everybody's going to catch up. And so we look at the data to say, how is the product performing? What is it doing? Is it meeting all of the requirements of what it is the same time we also say, we look at our marketing initiatives, and we use data and we say, How is our communication? What were we getting noticed? What different types of marketing tactics, trade shows, or syndicated content is converting, but at the end of the day, there's got to be a balance because we're all human. And when we think about what our day looks like, we can fill it with paralysed analytics for one of a better description to say, our marketing is doing well, or products performing, and so forth. But at the end of the day, is that human element. And if we truly are understanding Pete, and we truly are delivering a solution to his problems in his day, we are going to want to know what that looks like. And we want to build that loyalty. And that happens in relationships. So I like to guide my team, certainly work with my peers around, yes, let's make data driven decisions. But let's also understand them from a relationship perspective, and build those relationships. And I guess that one plus one equals more balanced and more objective decision making ice.
Ben Kaplan 11:38
And when you think about kind of getting people on board and getting buy in from lots of other folks to the marketing direction, how do you do that? What's the what how do you get people you know, kind of, you know, aligned, so that you don't, you're not like a CMO going off on your own. And really, no one else is with you in terms of other leaders in the company.
Cindy White 12:04
Yeah, I'm, I'm really thrilled to work in an environment where the CEO, understand the function of marketing and its strategic value to the business, and uses marketing as a tool to help us be directed to help us be informed and to build products based on market need. So that's a starting point. So I'm really grateful and I value working in this environment, we then decide based on market opportunity, where we should be going. And if you have the right insights in the right balance, you can bring your peers along. But the most important thing is to be able to listen and understand that diverse mindsets and thoughts of your peers, we're all there for a reason, we all have a function, we all have our talents and competencies. And it's about being able to listen and partner with them. Because it is a team game, leading an organisation like ours Beninese is really just pausing for a moment to understand the diverse thoughts that you've got in the room making sure that you have diverse thoughts in the room, and then using this, you know, the need and the persona to drive the business? So that's what I would how I would answer that.
Ben Kaplan 13:23
I see and, and on the point about sort of diverse voices in the room, I know you've been outspoken on gender equality and technology. Certainly, if you're saying who's in the room, it tends to be more men in the room than women. How do you approach that? And and also get we've sort of said, Pete is your you know, this name for this persona. But it also, you know, might be instead of Pete, it's Mary, and Mary's a faculty fact, you know, the decision maker, and you've got to address her needs to so how do you bring that in, in sort of technology companies that historically have been have not been really equal?
Cindy White 14:06
Yeah, I think, first and foremost, we have a role as citizens, as you know, citizens of our communities, citizens in the corporate world, we have a role to play in terms of understanding what is going to bring more diversity into the, into the company, but then educating and informing others who might not have thought about it that same way. And then just following through, I think there are so many of us that really care deeply about more women getting into technology, and we have great ideas, but we get busy. And so I would say understand it, educate and then follow through as far as you know, using what we do and identity to communicate the role of technology and helping equality across all diverse all minorities is that technology itself is not intrinsically biassed, right? I believe this digital era that we find ourselves in, has levelled the playing field, and certainly has the opportunity to keep it level. Because when we, if we have a device and we have access to the internet, we can transact, we can browse, we can show up, we can inquire, we can listen to podcasts, we can participate, we can have digital access, and nobody asks what we are who we are, or if we have a disability, or if we're from another country. And so it's pretty level. But and therefore, access to this digital route needs to be protected and kept as equal. And so a company like ours puts a lot of energy around the research and development to ensure that the machine learning that we are developing to, you know, make our products more sophisticated and their capabilities has to have the right amount of data that's equal of minority groups. Gender is a big thing. If you think about biometrics, you know, our voice might sound different, whether we are man or woman, our skin tone might look different when we taking a selfie to access something. And so it's about making sure that our sample groups have enough of that diverse data so that our AI and machine learning can use
Ben Kaplan 16:29
enough of that. So it's not like sort of self selected into a smaller group. Even though for no intended reason, actually as biassed, as it was, yeah.
Cindy White 16:38
And you know, subliminal bias is a thing, right? It's real. And so making sure that the r&d teams are equally staffed from all of the minority groups, and so that the decision making the boardroom is thinking about it intentionally, and asking questions, asking the right questions, will that work in this country? Will that work for this type of person? Will that help people with disabilities etc. And so I do believe technology is a great enabler for equaling the playing fields.
Ben Kaplan 17:07
So give me give me an example of the kind of move from more like high level strategy to tactics of how an understanding let's say, of, of Pete, this persona, has impacted you in a decision that you've made where it's, it's changed your decision, you were going down one path, and it's impacted something else, where if you didn't have sort of that guide, or that deeper understanding, you might have done something differently, but it's made a big difference in what you've actually done is another example of that. Yeah, I
Cindy White 17:35
think if you were to take, you know, there's a buying group in any technology decision, and this particular persona, Pete is at the front of that buying group. And he has other folks around him. A manager that he reports to has an eminent emeritus and he has a colleague, that he that he communicates with to make the decision. But at the end of the day, if we just show up in all of those places in a in a traditional digital way, they are going to see that message, and it's going to be bland. So we literally tested on, you know, we do small focus groups, periodically, we work with our resident product managers to be testing and we test headlines against them. And those headlines, help us break through. And we AB test him and say, Okay, well, this is the headline that we thought was more fitting for the brand. But this is the headline that fits for Pete in this particular market. And it takes us away from being product centric, and listing out features and functionality to being outcome centric, like what is the outcome that he's looking for? He's, you know, and so it really plays its role in how we break through on digital communication, and trade shows. What what is our booth look like? And does he drink coffee? Or does he eat chocolate? Maybe he doesn't do any of those things. And we should be asking him if he wants a cocktail. And those are some of the you know, the tactical execution items that we think about when we carry through the persona. Location, why where's he located? What does he like to do in his day, he's not an early bird, but he certainly likes to go to a ballgame. Those will help us decide where we engage them and how we build better relations with him.
Ben Kaplan 19:20
Well and interesting that you talk about, you know, focus groups, I mean, I would say that focus groups it is you know, widely used in a lot of consumer marketing is typically done it is also used in in b2b marketing but but less so, you know, when it's outside of like a major market research initiative, like okay, we're heading into a market we really want to understand we do this big project. It sounds like the way you're using it is interesting, which is more on fine tuning a message or course correcting or more of like a pulse use of focus groups rather than like, let's do the big market, research project, validate this market, we're going to enter then we just go and never think about We'll get into that, my theory that Berkeley and how
Cindy White 20:02
your Yeah. And like you, I was so excited to start using it again. And it was during the pandemic that it dawned on me that you can put a focus group together and less have less time and with less money than traditional focus groups, were you sitting in a one way communication. And so I got excited about it. And, and it's been fantastic to fine tune messaging, but also understand what they really want, as I remind you, and our market is highly competitive, it's high growth, and there are a dozen competitors, it will do a similar thing. But actually what this persona wants, what pizza wants slightly different. And so we've got to break through the clutter, we've got a stand up, we've got to reach in when it was most meaningful him, maybe he's not thinking about a new vendor when he's at work, because he's so busy. But he thinks about it when he's at home. And he's online, and he's clicking through his feet, which aren't social feeds, by the way, they move forums. And these are what we've discovered in these focus groups and, you know, Zoom calls, bless them. They enable us to connect with focus groups in a meaningful way in a very scrappy and an efficient way. So we love them.
Ben Kaplan 21:16
So how is P affected by the pandemic? And as my cute way of asking, actually, now, how was the company affected by the pandemic, in terms of the acceleration as more people turn digital, we're doing more social distancing less than person, it accelerated a lot of things for a lot of companies digital transformation, certainly a need for more digital identity verification, how did that shift? The marketing thinking? Or how did this Pete think about things differently? Yeah. And
Cindy White 21:44
it's really interesting, you know, we accelerated, I would say, the growth of the category, and a pace we had not anticipated. And so many of our customers think of them as delivery services, think of them as those banks that all of a sudden, were transacting purely digital, and branches were shut down, you can imagine the volume of digital transactions with just 10 fold or more. And so we had to be there, we had to be stable with them. And we became an a net both an enabler and an essential item in the technology stack. And so we say that, you know, identity technology is now an essential part of most organised commercial organisations technology stack. So that was number one. Number two, we have to think we want good customers on our platform as quickly as possible. But fraud, you know, fraud is a terrible thing. It asked indicators of big organisations that love the fact that now more and more folks are transacting online, and they can grab those data points that enable them to be a bad actor. And so we had to find a way to quickly think faster or more efficiently, then the fraudster so that we could protect in our on our products were performing as accurately as possible, so get the good customers in, but at the same time, enable the organisation to minimise their fraud. And so those two things in themselves are just made for digital environment. And so that was a busy time, I would imagine that there are more pizza in the world than they've ever been, as these product managers take on the new era of optimising for more customers on their platform, whilst minimising the cost of fraud, and very importantly, managing regulation relative to data privacy regulation relative to money laundering, regulation, relative to account takeover and financial regulation that lives in banks predominantly.
Ben Kaplan 23:49
And did you adjust your messaging at all during the pandemic? The messaging change? Was, Is it different now than it was before?
Cindy White 23:57
I think all three, so it was slightly different going into the pandemic. We elevated it, because it quickly became, you know, we, we were using unprecedented times actually in our headline, and we had to change it because it was prolific at that time. So yes, we did adjusted and then coming out of the pandemic, it is expected now that if you're trying to get online, that you would take a selfie, so we've had to really think about moving that along how we how identity is personal, how we help you make better decisions with your identity. So yes, we've adapted our messaging and before, during and after.
Ben Kaplan 24:38
And what's on your marketing roadmap for pieces that you want to do that you haven't done? Sounds like you've done a big piece of this company about personifying the persona, you got to define your brand was knowing your brand. Companies are evolving, brands are evolving, things are happening. What is there something on the roadmap, that's a marketing sort of piece that you need to take my tech to the next level.
Cindy White 25:07
Yeah, I think it is really around how do we make identity personal for consumers so that they pay attention to it, I think we have a corporate responsibility as a category to educate consumers how to stay safe online. And so identity verification, be it at the point of applying for a new account or adopting a new subscription to the point where you re accessing it. I believe our company is the right company to help consumers through that journey, and help our organisations like the big banks that we engage with, help them help their consumers in this new normal. We are on the cusp of web three and Metaverse and augmented reality, and what its identity is going to look like in that role. And so how can we get consumers and the banks that want them and the marketplaces that need them? To take a responsibility to protect our identities, both online in a digital environment, but also an augmented environment? So that's kind of the next phase of marketing, how can we market through our customers to the consumer.
Ben Kaplan 26:24
So I'd love to end on what we call lightning round and just get your thoughts on some specific, you know, hot button or trending topics within marketing and see how you approach it. So first question for you is marketing, automation, overrated? Or underrated? And how do you approach it? Given that you think a lot about the personas that you're trying to reach?
Cindy White 26:49
It's underrated right now. Because I think it can change. It needs to change. It can't be. It can't be impersonal has to be personal. But once you've managed to use technology to make it super personal, I think it has a role in our lives.
Ben Kaplan 27:08
But And one interesting thought on that that we have is we often think about how do we use marketing automation to deliver value, not just sell something which usually is done like, Okay, we have might have these branches, we see actions, we measure behaviour, we trigger another communication, we trigger another touchpoint. Ultimately, we're driven by metrics to sell things. I don't know if you think about that, in sort of that personal view in personalising it. And if we're thinking about Pete, or John, or Bob, or Mary, or Cindy, how do we actually deliver value throw those communications of those touch points we're having, and we serve them, not just serve ourselves, agree or disagree?
Cindy White 27:50
I agree. So I think automation is going to make it more efficient for us to do what we want to do. So whether it's a marketing message that we want to read, or it's providing us access to a piece of information that we need, automation is going to help us do that, I think the right level of chatbot, when, whether it's a automated chat, or whether it's literally a human behind there, but it's that access where we don't see each other. That's the automation that I'm thinking of in this world where we're doing our personal lives, and our work lives, at different times in different days. And we can do life in different ways. We need our technology to be there for us when we want it. And that's what I truly believe in with automation. But there's a responsibility on the marketers that use it to stop to stop just using it as solicitation to stop using marketing automation for spam to stop using more marketing automation and giving us all a bad name. Be thoughtful about how you use it and how you reach your your persona, your PII in the right environment.
Ben Kaplan 28:55
And lightning round question number two, content marketing. Everyone's a content marketer these days may overrated or underrated, and how do you reach? Oh,
Cindy White 29:08
that's a hard one because I completely agree with you that everybody wants to be a content marketer today, but we will live in a world of content. And so this conversation is content. And it's so rich and an uplifting to be able to listen to other CMOS on your show. Personally for me, content in an environment when you are appealing and you're wanting to learn which technology is making is going to save me more money and make my customers come on my platform pot. He can do that in his own time and that content is so rich for him. So I think underrated. I'm gonna go with underrated. King content is king.
Ben Kaplan 29:44
Okay. And finally, in person trade shows are coming out of the pandemic now being in person together at a conference or a trade show, overrated or underrated and how do you approach it
Cindy White 30:00
USANA underrated all three of these. I'm so excited that they're back. Because I think they've come back with more intention and more purpose. And they're more relevant than they've ever been. Sure, certainly I'm speaking from I've only been back to so. But they are platforms to have relationships to build relationships, where for the rest of the time, we actually behind our screens, communicating with our customers, communicating with our agencies, communicating with our teams, trade shows are now giving us that platform to engage in person. What I did notice that the first one that I went back was that no one was really going to the sessions to get their content. They were rather on the booth talking, they were having dinner with us, they were interacting and sharing stories. And so I think they have a role to play, I think it's short lived, I think it's the next 12 months or so as we all get back. And then there may or may not evolve to be something else. But for now, they're great. They helping us be human to human and building those relationships. And
Ben Kaplan 31:02
maybe we've all attended a lot of webinars. So with our webinar, let's, you know, let's, let's go have drinks and talk, let's do something else. Webinars in person, maybe so. So final thought of the day is given your background in, in consumer marketing to really big tech companies like like like Microsoft, where you are now in a hot space with a fast growing company like my tech. What is your advice for the next person who's going to come in that path? What would you do differently in terms of your career or exposure? What would you be advised me for kind of the next next generation of marketer coming up who might want a similar path.
Cindy White 31:47
I think when you think about the Gen Z's being the next marketers that are coming up, I would give advice, to not pick a field, but to play the field where you think so many of them want to be entrepreneurs, and they've got that entrepreneurial mindset. They're so driven around social and social causes. But I would encourage them to try to find an environment where they really happy doing what they're doing. Because marketing doesn't have any boundaries. Marketing makes businesses more successful marketing hubs, you uncover social causes. Marketing is the science and the art. So you get to be data driven, and you get to be creative in any given day. But finding your, your path of where you're comfortable and being an organisation or being starting an organisation, that is marketing. Brilliant means that you have to understand your customer and to understand your customer, you need to understand many customers. So really try and early on in your career, try new companies, try new tactics, try different things so that you can find your personal groove, because we're all slightly different marketers and we're all together we're better and when that's why they are teams and not just solo people doing work.
Ben Kaplan 33:13
Well, well said, I'm Cindy white, CMO of Mitek, a whisper, Pete whisper as part of your day job but then marketer and kind of bring to b2b tech companies, a stronger sense of brand, the song stronger sense of serving the customer. So really appreciate your thoughts. And thank you for joining us so much on autopsy, and
Cindy White 33:36
then I've loved the conversation. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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