Chris Moye 00:01
If you're trying to make a change that's very invasive for people. Typically people want today to look like yesterday and tomorrow to look like today, it's very difficult to have everybody cling to these habits.
The Detective 00:14
Imagine you're the CEO of a major company. In today's fast paced, tech driven world, you're on a mission to future proof your business. But the journey is like navigating a labyrinth, the pressure is on every choice, every change, every innovative step you take could make or break your company in this ever changing market. You're not just a boss, you're an orchestrator.
Chris Moye 00:41
Many different departments, many different individuals, how do you get all of those people to kind of march together so you get the benefit of collaboration towards a common goal,
The Detective 00:53
you will challenge juggling different interests, building trust in your team and keeping the lines of communication open across the board. In a world dominated by tech, with its network effects, automation and optimization. It's crucial for survival. Yet getting to grips with these complexities can feel like learning Martian, are you ready to stay your company through this sea of change? Or will the wave of progress wash your hard work away?
Chris Moye 01:22
If you continue to keep doing the same things you've always done? The definition of insanity is expecting different results.
The Detective 01:30
This is the tale of Chris Moye. Welcome to 'The Orchestrator'.
Ben Kaplan 01:37
Chris, your background is really interesting, and especially timely right now because you're an orchestrator of change. And we are indeed in changing times that require a lot of agility and transformation. When you say
Chris Moye 01:53
100%. You know, this is one of those moments that almost feels like the financial crisis, right? Where things are changing really rapidly, like we've never seen before, obviously, coming out of COVID, which was a another major change, we've never seen a lockdown virtually across the country happened like it did and across the globe. And the disruption that has happened as a result of that contributes mightily to the disruption that most companies are feeling to a greater or lesser extent today. 100%.
Ben Kaplan 02:29
One we have COVID the pandemic two we have economic downturn that is debated how fast it's coming, but it's coming already here inflation is trying to be curbed under control. If you're a CEO now a startup a scale up enterprise company, should you be changing something like if you're not changing? Is that room for Warri? Does everyone need to be changing or adapting right now?
Chris Moye 02:51
I think the answer is, you know, categorically, yes, almost every business needs to be changing in some way. I'm sure there, there are examples that are just fine right now. But most companies are seeing dramatic impacts to their business. And a lot of that is negative. And that is the shortage of labor, the cost of labor, the cost of all these raw materials from food to fuel, I mean, you name it, it's almost every element of the cost structure that's being impacted now. And sometimes you can get it, but you have to pay a higher price. And sometimes it's not even available, which drives you to dry, make changes and accommodations in other ways. As time goes on the supply chains, the global supply chains are starting to normalize. But as they normalize, they're not coming back to the same cost structure that they were before that has a major implication that will ripple through this economy, likely for some period of time. So
Ben Kaplan 03:51
your vantage point is interesting, because your background seems like a number of different phases in your career. One, you have the McKinsey Consulting pedigree, obviously famous management consulting firm, usually management consulting is high level, we're going to recommend what to do probably going to leave it to someone else to do it. But you actually worked in a division that actually was working on doing actual things. So that's one and then two, because of your background in private equity and either consulting for or coming into run private equity companies, you've needed to on pretty short runways change the trajectory of company. So before we get into like, how that works and the how of transformation, how does your background inform this both on the consulting side, the PE side, and ultimately as either CEO or interim CEO.
Chris Moye 04:39
So thank you for that. It's very kind, you know, obviously, the McKinsey part of my experience base comes relatively late in my career. I did do some consulting earlier in my career, but for the most part, I've been very oriented towards executing plants because developing strategies. In other words, knowing what to do is not usually the issue, most companies come come up with a pretty good strategy of here's what we would like to do in order to better succeed. What I've learned over the course of my career, and what McKinsey specifically hired me to do, is to be the Been there done that guy with the gravitas that can actually be pragmatic enough to get things done in the real world. So we all know that that, you know that the negative connotation to a consultant is yeah, they come up with a plan, but it's not an implementable plan. Right. So from a company perspective, make sure that once or twice, sir, okay, no, like, that's a great plan on paper, but in reality is something else. Sure. The consultants on the other hand, would typically say, Well, you know, if we could just get better people to follow our plan. It's a brilliant plan. And, you know, somewhere in between is the truth. So, that is, you know, generally considered the ability to apply EQ into an organization and understand the dynamics and the staging of making change happen,
Ben Kaplan 06:12
just data for everyone. EQ, meaning emotional intelligence is what you mean by that. And accompany isn't just a thing. It's an organization and aggregation of people that all have different skills, abilities, talents, backgrounds, motivations, and somehow you've got to get that use a term, I think, orchestrating, you got to get that orchestrating in a way. And that's what brings that strategic plan to life because you have a brilliant plan, the best plan in the world, but if you can't make all those pieces move in harmony, you're not gonna be able to do it.
Chris Moye 06:42
And I think you you teed that up very well, then because orchestration really is the right word to use here. Because, as you said, you know, most organizations consists of many different departments, many different individuals, how do you get all of those people to kind of march together, so you get the benefit of collaboration towards a common goal, that's hard to do. Because there's a lot of internal dynamics that are going on in any one point in time. And we all know, you know, there are classic, you know, like the sales organization in the operations organization, or even the sales organization, the marketing organization, don't always line up on what their objectives are. And they're there right in the same company sitting feet away from each other. So how do you get people that have a common point of view, to kind of come together and get the power of the entire organization, which by the way, when you're looking for big change, we talked about at McKinsey holistic change, so that it's self reinforcing, and it works over a longer period of time. That takes some time. And that takes some skill to actually pull together,
Ben Kaplan 07:56
I want to get your take on on the critical parts of how you do that. But before we do that, I'd love to get your take, because you've seen a lot of companies in your career, whether for close up or afar. What are the common blockers to that? Let's just outline some of them. You mentioned one already, which is misalignment between departments, right? They just don't see eye to eye. What else do you see as the common reasons that change cannot be enacted by companies?
Chris Moye 08:20
Yeah, so silos is one way to think about that. And silos is the inability for an organization to be boundary less nests. Right? So I don't recognize that I'm in the Operations Group, and you're in the marketing group, I recognize that we're both wearing the same color Jersey trying to work together, that's easily said hard to do. Okay, so that's one, it depends. Sometimes it's a bigger problem than in other companies, right? There are many companies that have, you know, been benefited with success over many, many years. And as a result, they burn into their DNA, so to speak, this is the way we do things. And so when you want to think about making a change, and they say, well, but you don't understand this is the way we do things around here. That's a way of blocking change.
Ben Kaplan 09:18
To paraphrase that one, it's being stuck in your ways. But it's even more than that, because maybe some of these companies over time have best practices. But what if best practices are no longer best? They're just practices now, and how do you combat that? So there's that kind of almost like inertia. There's like a drag in getting momentum. It's like driving with the parking brake down all the time, because you can't really release that parking brake. That's well said. Well said, obviously, when someone like yourself is brought in, if you're going to run a company, either someone's moving positions to make room for you or there's been a shift in leadership or something else, something's happened. So how much of it is people said, How much do you see A blocker is just like leadership at the top the people involved. And it's either a personality thing or it's a they're not the right people to implement change because they don't think like that.
Chris Moye 10:09
Well, I would say generally speaking, people that are looking for somebody like me, they're looking for leadership. So leadership to get to a better place, whatever they define that to be, right. So sometimes that is simple as a company has continued to grow. Maybe it's grown through acquisition and the complexity level has outgrown the individual that's in that role today. That's one, the ability to see what the current business model is versus what the current environment requires, again, in a period of disruption, this is much more common. Right? Where I was successful yesterday, I'm not successful today. Do I hold my breath and wait for the change to go back to the way it used to be? Or do I get on with it and say, well, maybe I need to change my location of my campsite, I need to get to higher ground because this area's flooding.
The Detective 11:07
In an age rocked by economic upheaval and global pandemics, businesses face a stark choice, adapt or perish. Enter Chris Moye, 'The Orchestrator' of change, but the symphony of change hit sour notes, internal divisions, age old habits, and resistance to new rhythms through the orchestration off key. Yet, under Moyes guild button, these discordant voices can unite into a powerful crescendo of collaboration, the stage has shifted, the old script torn up in these turbulent times, waiting for the storm to pass is not an option. Instead, we must learn to dance in the rain, find higher ground and together conduct the music of transformation. It's time for the curtain to rise on a new era, it's time for the orchestra to play.
Ben Kaplan 12:09
So to move from that, we've kind of defined a lot of common problems. Let's get into the how of transformation. And specifically, what are some of our elements components to to drive that one of the things you've said I've heard you say that I thought was interesting is you've said that ultimately, if you're driving change, you're driving cultural change. What does that mean? Because a lot of people when they think culture, it's like, yeah, I've got like a cool office or a flexible work life policy, or, you know, we'd like each other and go to happy hour, that's culture, I think he means something different than that.
Chris Moye 12:44
Yep. In particularly in today's day and age, if you're trying to make a change, you potentially are doing things like changing the habits that I use every day to define success in my job, okay, so I come in, I do this, I have a cup of coffee, I sign on, I do this, and then I do this first, then this, then this, then this, then this. And that's basically my job in tomorrow's world, that may change. That's very invasive for people. So as they cling to the past, typically people want today to look like yesterday and tomorrow to look like today, it's very difficult to have everybody cling to these habits. And these habits are based on reward systems and values that are held by the organization. And that's basically what makes up culture.
Ben Kaplan 13:38
So if habits are the cornerstone of a culture, it's interesting because someone like Steven Covey, famous author of seven habits of highly effective people would probably define a habit, something like a habit is what allows you to focus on what really you need to focus on. Because the habit takes care of everything else, you can kind of go on autopilot, and all the stuff in your day and all everything else, because the habit takes care of it. You know what to do intrinsically, so that you can focus your attention on the stuff that is unique and different that the habit can't take care of. But if you actually have to change the habit, that's hard, because the habit is like your autopilot. And now you're saying the autopilot is off, cruise control is off, everything that you've done is different. Now you actually have to steer in a different way. And that's stressful. It's overwhelming. It's hard to focus, and a lot of us to be effective. We're trying to find the signal from the noise. And the problem is in times of change, there's a heck of a lot of noise. So how do you find the signal and how do you redo a habit when it's hard enough for all of us to lose weight, drink less, exercise more, those are hard to change also.
Chris Moye 14:38
Yep. And as you you may be well aware, if you try to make too much change too quickly, you generally will fail. You need to build in new routines to replace old routines. That's pretty much the proven way to make change. Stick in organizations in a framework perspective. Have, one of the things that I would talk about is the mindsets, and processes and behaviors that drive and define the way that that culture actually works. So the mindsets, for example, is the customer the most important? Or is low cost the most important? That's a value system that kind of permeates through the organization. Right? So that's an example of mindset. Generally speaking, every company has a mission statement. And from that, that is supposed to be the North Star that guides a lot of the organization's behaviors, and values. What I found is that they talk about that, but are they living it, maybe a disconnect, and maybe that mission is perfectly on target for today's world, but you've kind of strayed in delivering that to your consumers and your customers, and you're getting more and more disconnected from their needs. So there sometimes is a disconnect. In executing against mindset. Sometimes the mindset is just off kilter. So you have to kind of determine which one is which.
Ben Kaplan 16:13
So if you're having you're talking about mindset, and a mission statement, as a sort of tool in developing that common mindset, does it matter what the mindset is? Or does it just have to be aligned? To use your example? Is there a right answer to being? Is the customer most important or as low cost most important? Or is it important that everyone's aligned with that and moving towards the same direction on that? Or is there a right answer? And, hey, we want to treat our customers? Well, that's the correct answer. How do you approach that mindset?
Chris Moye 16:41
You're talking about? What is the correct strategy, and it's hard for me to know that without having context, etcetera, but you know, what I would say is that most companies that are up and running of any size already have a pretty good strategy. They're they're actually got paying customers, assuming they're making money. And, you know, things are moving in the right direction. There are turnarounds where you have to kind of do a harder look at whether or not you're focused on the right things. Right. So what's the starting point? Is this a company that has had a big disconnect, and therefore is failing in the marketplace, and then it is more like a turnaround, as opposed to, we're actually doing okay, but we're sub optimizing the potential, that's more of a transformation. And so it's somewhat the same, but it's quite different as well, depending on what the actual circumstances are,
Ben Kaplan 17:37
you were brought in as CEO of Crossmark, as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but cross mark was a large company, a successful company, but had kind of become tired, had lost some of their profit, it wasn't going in a positive trending direction, but the fundamentals of the company were still successful and strong. That would be your case of not only a turnaround, right, but it just needs to wait to be optimized. So how did you think about that in terms of mindset for a company like Crossmark,
Chris Moye 18:06
what I would say is Crossmark was stuck in the past terms of this is the way we've always done it, it was 120 year old company, plus year old company. So it's been around for a long, long time, it had grown through acquisition, it had been a relative winner in the industry. But times had changed. And they had not changed appropriately with that. And there was a lot of reasons why that's the case. But over time, punting from one year to the next to the next, have, you know, less than robust performance eventually get you in a ditch, and you end up in a undesirable situation, if you continue to keep doing the same things you've always done, the definition of insanity is, you know, expecting different results. That's kind of where they were when I came in. That's the mindset challenge that they were really facing is we need to think about the way we do things differently.
Ben Kaplan 19:02
And the Crossmark example, where was mindset in the past? And where did it need to go in the future? Yeah, so
Chris Moye 19:06
the main drivers of, of that particular business, this sales and marketing agency business is a combination of scale, technology, and labor arbitrage. That was really the core of what tech enabled services is really all about. Right? So there's a lot of businesses that I would say the core capabilities that you're really selling are your ability to scale and do therefore, more efficiently than your alternative technology, which is going to be a part of the way scale, you know, leverages it and then labor arbitrage I can do it cheaper than you can do it because I can get this particular labor or I can share this this particular capability more efficiently than you can do yourself. So that's the core of tech enabled sorc services in large, large part right so for A period of time Crossmark had done very well on all three of those dimensions. But over time, that technology started to get dated, the scale didn't keep up with its competitors. And the labor arbitrage model deteriorated over time, that puts you in a less than desirable competitive state. And so as a result, you realize you got to change some things. When I came in, the first thing I do is basically look at the financials and see well, what's that look like? And how quickly do we have to make a move? And also assess, you know, how do people think about it themselves, and what the issues are, and what typically what I would find is somewhat like a bell shaped curve in terms of the perceptions, 10% of the people, maybe even 20% of the people would say, You know what, we really need to do something, we need to do it yesterday, we need to get on, I cannot wait to make that happen. There's probably an equal number of people on the other side, that would never move, anything change anything, no matter what I used to say you can't move them with a crowbar, no matter what, you can't move them. But if you say that, you know, like, there's 15%, and there's 15%, that's only 30% of all the people there 70% In the middle, are waiting to see, they're waiting to see, you know, like I've heard about change programs before, are we really going to follow through? Are we really going to make that an investment are we really going to do everything is necessary to be successful, we make that change that understanding of how to orchestrate that over time, and bring together all the elements necessary, is really what I do. And so it applies to companies that are in turnaround situations, but it's also in companies that are trying to leverage new technologies or integrate existing non integrated acquisitions, for example, and make them synergistic, etc.
Ben Kaplan 22:02
I don't know if you give each of those groups a name, like the tenants waiver said that wanted to change something yesterday, I mean, they're at the bleeding edge of this, or the cutting edge, or the change artists or something like that you got the people who are would never move stuck in the mud or something like that. And then you got this big group in the middle, waiting to see what's going to happen. So which group is critical? If you come in? Or if a CEO is listening now? Do you have to win over? Are you leading with the people that are the gung ho people? Do you have to win over the middle? Or do you got to get those in the mud out of the mud? What do you have to do?
Chris Moye 22:32
Yeah, so I would say, you know, you, you have your core group of leaders that make themselves aware to you that are ready to make the change, you need to get a critical mass of people behind them to help move the organization forward. By the way, this is early adopters that then convince their friends to come along. And eventually it gets to a tipping point. Does that sound familiar to you? As a marketer, sir, sure, that is essentially what you're trying to do with the people.
Ben Kaplan 23:05
You're trying to market the change within the company, and you need that same process to happen.
Chris Moye 23:11
Yes. And so, you know, at McKinsey, you know, you talked about that how of transformation, that was the big differentiator of the group that I joined, that I was recruited into, right? The idea of it isn't what needs to be done, that's hard. It's how to get it done. That's hard. And how to get it done, consists of those things we talked about before with the behaviors and the processes and the mindset, but also a way of structuring change management. And that's the way that you communicate to people and you reinforce small wins that eventually build into larger wins. And you do that in a structured way over time.
Ben Kaplan 23:55
And why do you want the small wins to build into larger rooms? Let me play devil's advocate for a second. Why don't just have big wins, we like to win. Why not? I'm teaming up here a little bit. The big Chris, you can knock this one down. But why not just be a super charismatic leader, come in with a vision and speak really well about it? Have it be well thought out and change things overnight? Why not just be like, you know, Monday, we were this Tuesday where that I give a great speech, and bam, we're doing it and we're off. Why not do that?
Chris Moye 24:28
Well, some people may be able to do that. But my ego is not big enough to be able to do that. I think, you know, I come in with a beginner's mind. You know, from the Zen, you got to understand from first principles, what needs to be done, and communicate with people openly about how we're going to get there. Painting a vision of we're going to do this together is a much happier and more sustainable method. And then saying, I'm the smartest guy in the room. And you should just listen to me and do what I say what I've found, because once upon a time, I may have tried that, and found that it didn't work very well. Okay? Because people, you know, prove to you that you actually are not as smart as you think you are. So, being a more humble and let's do it together type of approach generally works well. And I think you build up trust to make that happen, right. And that trust is, when I say, I'm going to do something, you can take me at face value. You don't have to think well, what's his secondary motive? And Is he really going to do what he said, etcetera.
The Detective 25:43
We have navigated the treacherous waters of organizational change. We've listened as Ben and Chris have underscored the peril of inertia and the dangers of knee jerk reactions, highlighting that true market leaders are those who adapt fluidly and promptly to the shifting tides. According to Chris Moye, a positive company culture makes all the difference. Culture is not a superficial veneer, but the bedrock of habits and routines that script everyday triumphs. Next, it was habit transformation, arguing that only through strategic reinvention of routines can accompany culture truly evolve. Chris suggests alignment to a shared mission as the guiding star during this transformational journey. But what of leadership styles and the concept of command and control versus trust and inspire?
Ben Kaplan 26:40
Let's say, we go through that process, we need the leaders to make change, and they're on board. And then we have a critical mass of the early adopters who are kind of getting on board, we're looking for small, more humble wins together than the ego driven made bigger wins. And we know we've got to change some behaviors and some processes. So take me through how do you change behavior and process in an entity, particularly one like Crossmark, that's over 100 years of behaviors and processing imagine it's pretty well worn territory.
Chris Moye 27:11
So let me let me just clarify something to make sure that the listeners are, are on board with this. Because there is aspirational change, you are often trying to implement something that has never been done before. And people don't think is possible today. That is a big vision. But that vision doesn't come from somebody alone, like me, you know, there's no big and big enough brain to actually do that, you know, the power of the team is so much greater than any individual no matter how smart that individual is. And so the the idea of how do you bring in the collective intelligence of the organization and apply it to solve a problem that makes the company work better? That's an inspiring vision for a lot of people. They want to be a part of that. But you got to prove it to him, because that sounds good. But that's not their life today. And so how does that happen? And happens bit by bit. That's why I brought up about the habits. People live in habits every day, and they don't even realize it's kind of like the fish that's in water doesn't realize they're swimming in water. So getting people to make the little changes that ultimately they see links to an aspirational vision. And A Better Tomorrow is what this approach is really all about. And that's why I said it's really it's a leadership approach. And I've found that it works very, very well.
Ben Kaplan 28:39
So what's an example of a little change that you've done, whether that's Crossmark or elsewhere, a little habit that gives you baby steps in a direction where you want to go, that maybe some of our listeners who are running companies or departments in companies or business units might be able to do what's an example of that type of little change that you would bring about.
Chris Moye 28:59
A good example is, you know, kind of the way I would run my staff meetings, for example, and part of an organization that is siloed, is you really don't appreciate what the other organizational part is going through, and how it might relate back to, you know, your part, there's a learning a collective learning that needs to be facilitated through that process. And the way I do that is, you know, generally there are pretty known issues within the company. How are we going to get XYZ done, and you can kind of break it up into its component parts, and you can talk about a plan, whatever. But the real magic typically happens when you get cross functional cooperation and collaboration. And that starts with understanding and having empathy. This is why EQ is so important empathy for the other point of view and the trade offs that need to be made there. Understanding all of those puts and takes takes time. dialogue, facilitating dialogue through the Socratic method basically by asking questions, and I can do that very easily when I'm new, because I don't know. So I can say, Well, why is it like that? And why about this. And over time, I develop a sense for how this connects to another part of the organization. And I would bring in the other person and say, You know what, what Pam is talking about, affects Jamie over here, and is eventually going to affect Ben, let's talk about how that's going to roll out over time. And it's not necessarily scripted. It is real time reacting to what the circumstances are in the interactions of the people.
Ben Kaplan 30:44
Two things you said there. One is try to have a period of asking more questions in meetings that's kind of facilitating this and having a period of listening, and then to then trying to bring together groups or individuals that are not normally meeting together to make them meet together in some kind of focused or structured way as the aftermath of that. Is that correct? That's right. How does that get to the processes part? After that, because we talked about mindset and trying to align the mindset, we've talked about behavior. And I can see that how you just described meeting changing some behaviors. But then we need like, for any business, repeatable, scalable process, right, that ultimately drive some economic impact? How do we take that and get to there,
Chris Moye 31:27
so let me just recast a little bit, what we covered on the other ones mindset are things like the growth mindset versus a fixed mindset, or an owner's mindset kind of thing, as opposed to my little pocket of the organization. The behaviors are, are basically things like I just described, which is modeling the behaviors you want, right?
Ben Kaplan 31:50
modeling it as the CEO, if you're the CEO, or you have to walk the walk, not just talk
Chris Moye 31:54
to talk and reinforce good behaviors that you want to see more of by giving them public praise, or showing it off in a town hall, or whatever, right? That's a lot of the change management, the process piece. And there's two elements of that one is the overall map of where we're going, we're going to set out on our trip to Seattle, that means we're generally setting north northwest is the compass direction. And then we're finding out as we go, there's a test and learn element to how we make that transition from where we're at today, to where we're going in the future. And that consists of two parts, one structuring the overall journey. And how do you do that? And you break it up into its component parts and you address how do you eat the elephant? Basically, you've heard that one before. The other one is this test and learn mindset, which is, I'm not going to necessarily get it right the first time, I'm going to try something new. And I'm going to reinforce the things that I want to see more of and de emphasize the things I want to see less of, let's say
Ben Kaplan 33:03
you do all of those things, we get our mindset kind of aligned, we work on changing some key behaviors, those behaviors become routines, and we're sort of making some progress. But just like, I'm reminded of the movie, The Godfather, the famous line, which is like just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. What do you do, then? Like how do you actually make this persist and stay and actually make something that doesn't require amazing leadership from Chris every day to be able to function, but actually persist and you actually leave the company and the company does well and self enforces itself and new people come in and new hires come in, and they adopt this culture and everything else. How do you get there, even when you're starting to see some signs of progress, but it can still pull you back?
Chris Moye 33:49
Well, I think there is something to be said for how many times you have to go through the process before it becomes the new habit. Right? You're building new habits.
Ben Kaplan 33:58
So maybe you're saying it's good. You should have to struggle a little bit. There should have to be some tension in this. You have to try to break free a few times just to build a habit maybe.
Chris Moye 34:06
Yeah, I think that's right. And I think it doesn't happen overnight. It takes months if not yours, and it depends what the end objective is or where you're trying to get to. And let's be honest, some of the people are not going to make the journey. So some people are going to exit the bus, new people are going to come in as well. And orchestrating all of that simultaneously is a task there is no question, you will get to a point where there's a certain amount of momentum to the direction and speed of the bus. So you don't necessarily have to be pushing every step of the way. You know, in Good to Great they talked about the flywheel effect. So once you get the flywheel moving, there becomes more momentum and things continue to move on their own. That's where you're trying to get to.
Ben Kaplan 34:57
If you enjoy this show, you'll love We're on TOP CMO with me, Ben Kaplan.
35:03
It's never been a better chance of opportunity to do that. I would definitely encourage marketers to be engaged in the product development process, because you're banking your brand's great moments, but it's the great brands that create movements.
Ben Kaplan 35:16
And that's the spirit of justice. Of course, this is the podcast where we go around the globe to interview marketing leaders from the world's biggest brands, fastest growing companies, and most disruptive startups available wherever you get your podcasts. What about the CEO, who is impatient, just says I want the people who wanted this yesterday is patience and important quality, but really can't be too patient. Because if we were just brought in by private equity, they have 18 month time window to do something here. That's not a tiny amount of time. That's also you don't have years and years and years to do this. What do you say about that this kind of notion of patience if you want small changes to lead to bigger changes, and if lasting change takes time? How do you kind of do it fast enough, particularly if you're in a situation where things are on a downward trend and you're not in business anymore if this takes too long?
Chris Moye 36:10
Look, you you mentioned earlier about Stephen Covey and seven habits. His son actually was a section mate of mine, a very good friend, Stephen Covey.
Ben Kaplan 36:20
I knew Sean Covey, who's one of his sons. He has a few different sons, he wrote a book called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective teens. And I wrote a book back in the day as well. So I knew Sean, but maybe you knew a different son.
Chris Moye 36:30
Yep. So Stephen is is his eldest son and help develop Seven Habits his sons since written a book, one of those books, his most recent book is called trust and inspire. And what he talks about is command and control versus trust and inspire as a leadership style, command and control looks like it will be the fast way to get to where you want to go. But it isn't necessarily the best way in the long run. So it's sometimes in a turnaround situation where the patient is dying on the table, the doctor, the surgeon has to take charge and has to tell people to do because every second counts. But generally speaking, that's not the majority of situations that most companies are under, they have more time to work that out. And what you find is that what is short term efficient, is long term effective, you need to build effectiveness within the organization, because once the flywheel starts turning, the organization starts turning, and making things happen much faster than any individual can make happen themselves, even the smartest person in the room.
Ben Kaplan 37:43
And the problem is, no matter how high functioning you are, the collective will the collective intelligence is always going to be greater than yours. So you have to get that flywheel moving. But then how do you build trust and intelligence instead of command and control? And usually, if you're doing this in an organization that maybe isn't doing quite as well, or isn't doing as well as one, those things break down? It's not usually a high trust high inspirational place at that moment. So is there any strategies or recommendations or just examples? You've seen how to do that?
Chris Moye 38:14
I would say, you know, it's character and its competence. Right? Character is, you know, is this person what we think they are? Are they, you know, straightforward? Do they not lie to me? Did they follow through on things that they're supposed to do? Can I trust, you know, that they're going to actually get things done, the competent side is, you know, like, it's, you have to be better than sleeping at the holiday at Denic day Inn Express, right? You know, like, you have real competence in order to do some of these things. And so having that competence, and the character together, builds trust. And that's what ultimately the building block is that helps drive a lot of this stuff forward. It's particularly important in my opinion, about digital transformation, because you're talking about a test and learn where people are going to fail. And they have to trust that if I try something, and it's with best intentions, and get up and move again, that you're going to help me and that you're not going to shoot me. And that's the way a lot of organizations unfortunately, work today, you know, you fail, you know, I'm going to kick you to the curb, and particularly now, with tough economic times, it's really challenging, right? Because there's a tendency to fire people over making mistakes, and you can't do that.
Ben Kaplan 39:36
To wrap up. You've talked about a number of skills that a CEO would need to have to be able to do this. I mean, you've mentioned a certain humbleness and ability to listen ability to project a vision, ability to model behavior, ability to build trust, some measure of patients, maybe not too much patients, but some patients, what else would you Say if you're going to predict whether this company is going to make it through change or not, and you're just looking at the CEO, and you're just saying, I can tell it, this company's gonna make it just by what I can see from him or from her, what would you look for, among all those things or everything else, if you're evaluating a CEO and leading a company through a difficult time,
Chris Moye 40:21
the ability to have communication and relationships across the organization, and that includes, by the way up to the board, you know, so a lot of these companies are private equity owned, and so you need to have positive relationships with the private equity owners as well. People on the board, the executive management team, the ELT, sometimes they call the senior team that middle layer throughout their organization, is there a dialogue that happens there? Is there an intent to get things better? Do we work collaboratively? Or do we have opened up dialogue? I'd say that's probably one of the most important things, not unlike having a good marriage.
Ben Kaplan 41:03
Okay. So if you see evidence, then in the CEO, or in a husband and wife, that there's communication there, there's relationships built, there's some trust there, a lot of other problems are solvable if that base is there. But if that isn't there, then whatever the problem is, is going to be harder to solve.
Chris Moye 41:23
Yes. Yeah. It's not that alone. But that's kind of a minimum starting point, I would say. And
Ben Kaplan 41:30
absolutely, then if that's table stakes, then what else? Is it for this moment in time we started our conversation with, there's times of change, we can end our conversation in times of change. What else is the CEO who's going to be successful? Now? What else are they going to be able to do that maybe others might not
Chris Moye 41:50
think, increasingly, technology and having an appreciation for, you know, exponential curves, network effects, the importance of data, automation, optimization capabilities that are available today. And if not, today, certainly tomorrow, that we couldn't even dream about five or 10 years ago. I mean, it's, again, it's a wake up call when people realize we've only had an iPhone for 15 years. And it's also it's already multiple times more powerful than the computers that got it man to the moon and back multiple times. And that is cheap. And so that power is expanding, like every other year, it's doubling in power. That's that's an impact that I think many CEOs need to appreciate is the power of technology.
The Detective 42:44
In a dynamic exchange fraught with insights, Ben and Chris unpack the challenges and rewards of steering change in today's volatile business environment. They explored the delicate balancing act between agility and stability, underscoring the importance of a company's capacity to pivot without losing sight of its core values. They painted a vivid picture of culture not as mere window dressing, but as the rhythmic dance of routines and habits that write the script of success. Throughout the conversation, they highlighted the importance of reimagining habits, portraying it as the cornerstone of enduring change. They put forth a compelling argument for alignment to a shared mission statement, a beacon for guiding companies through the choppy waters of transformation. As we close the chapter on this in depth exploration of leadership and transformation, we are left with a greater understanding of the resilience, adaptability and Strategic Foresight required to navigate the evolving landscape of business today. And with that, it's Case Closed. This amazing episode was brought to you by top thought leader don't forget to rate review and subscribe.
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