TOP CEO: Method CRM - 'The Method Meltdown' (With Paul Jackson)
Ben Kaplan 00:00
Hey, this is TOP CEO, the show about CEOs making tough decisions featuring CEOs from startups, scale ups and fortune 500 enterprises. TOP CEO is a business school case study, telling the story behind the story, and what you can learn from it from those who have faced the fire. And come out the other side. Welcome to the top SEO podcast.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 00:30
I'll start by saying I made the worst possible decision of my SEO career. And the warning bells are there.
The Detective 00:37
Imagine you're the CEO of Method CRM, a customer relationship management platform, designed specifically to empower small businesses, you built a prototype that holds the promise of limitless customization, no coding required,
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 00:56
I didn't make a fullness often by promising something can deliver on no code is real, like the idea that you can go down. So calm Valley and compete against a bunch of developers, it was just a proof point,
The Detective 01:06
your platform unlocks endless possibilities, making entrepreneurs dreams come true. But now you're standing on a cliff edge.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 01:18
Now we're over a year later. And now we're still haven't watched and then everyone's getting upset. Again, it was one of those times where I just felt that everything was fragile.
The Detective 01:28
Technical debt is piling up, your prototypes limitations are no longer hidden. They're screaming for attention. And there's a tidal wave coming, the mobile first revolution that could wash your platform away.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 01:44
And it felt like we hit the finish line for this term before the finish lines and the starting line. And so that's what it was.
The Detective 01:51
You've also set your sights on creating a marketplace for small scale app developers. One wrong move. And it's not just a step back, it's freefall.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 02:03
It's a back to a head developer. So I'm not going through a year of you breaking things. And that was the worst decision of my career.
The Detective 02:11
Do you move ahead with what you've built? Or do you go back to the drawing board to re architect the whole platform, the choice you make could either vote your company to new heights, or sink it into oblivion?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 02:26
Some board meeting has become interesting, right? So where are we in the timeline? I don't know. It's a very tough answer to give to a board.
The Detective 02:34
This is the story of Paul Jackson, CEO and founder of Method CRM. And this is ‘The Method Meltdown’.
Ben Kaplan 02:54
Paul, it's been an interesting journey for you 1314 years in this process, and take me through the original vision of Method what you were trying to create, and this prototype that you needed to get out to launch this company in that 2010 2011 timeframe.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 03:11
Well, of course, Ben, thanks for having me. Appreciate to be on your podcast here. The goal we had was before the term no code was even in existence. But we're creating a no code platform for small businesses,
Ben Kaplan 03:23
just for anyone listening. I mean, no code, I mean, it's very invoke now. But it's like a set of tools where you don't have to be a developer to write code. But still, you have some superpowers you can do to make things happen, because the tool hides all of that and allows you to point and click and configure at various levels of complexity to execute tasks. That's very invoke now, but circa 2010 2011, it wasn't really like a concept yet there were certain tools and people were trying to make simple things easier. But you embrace this, and what was the goal that you are going to empower small businesses to do what were they going to be able to create using your platform,
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 04:00
they're going to create custom workflows to solve their, whatever pains they had in their grown businesses. And really, ultimately, it was customers didn't break up with us anymore. That was really the problem that we originally tried to solve it. It was 2010 We had just been acquired by a previous opera company Q Express has been acquired by private equity company, and we're sitting around thinking, Okay, well, we're not going to move to wall Township, New Jersey, where this company that acquired us was, what are we gonna do? And we thought about what the problems we saw with our current software company that was that customers, they're small and they're five people they're different from when they're a 10 person company and from the 20 person company and so forth and and that as they changed the their needs adapt the software that we were selling them back then was a one size fits all software. And as their needs outgrew this one size fits all software, they break up with us and it goes somewhere else, and we're just trying to think how do we solve that problem like how happy we are Allow software to adapt, when needs change without belief,
Ben Kaplan 05:04
you set out then to create a prototype as many startups do to get some initial traction, some initial sales, usually there's a term which is like a minimum viable product, which is what can you sort of get out the door that satisfies customers enough, it doesn't have all the bells and whistles, it doesn't have your entire wish list and stuff, but it's out the door. And you were successful in doing that correct. And you got something out the door that people would actually give American or you're in Toronto, Canadian currency, or wherever in the world for and they will gladly do it. How was that process was smooth to just get your first product out there your prototype?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 05:40
Yeah, and so most of our customers are in the US. So we are fortunately getting US dollars, which we eventually do turn into cash and currency exchange rate, which is nice. But the MVP minimum viable product, the degree of complexity changes based on the application you're making. And when you're making what is essentially a no code platform, and you have a team of eight people start off with, it's hard. It's like a, it's a, it's a behemoth of a platform, you have to create the engine that allows you to drag and drop and move objects around creating an engine. So the little wizard, hey, when this button is clicked, what he wants them to do and asked to do various things from charging your credit card to saving a record or showing a record and all these things that he needs your MVP to do, and then allow them to sign in and so forth. It became a pretty big project for a small team to do. But we, we got it out. And it was really just like answering the question, would people want this? Would people want to make their own apps? Like, would they take an app that we built using this and and modify it versus buying Salesforce or buying something else that was out there on the market that didn't require you to make any customizations? That was the question that we were answering with this, this prototype this MVP
Ben Kaplan 06:56
is he launched the prototype, and you get the answer, which is yes, people want this, you have customers and things start to grow,
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 07:02
paying customers enough paying customers to even raise a series a former venture capitalist. So if life was good, we had traction,
Ben Kaplan 07:09
okay, yeah, traction there, they would use the phrase product market fit, you're starting to see that there's maybe some people want this, you didn't make something that no one wants, that's good. And at this point is really the critical CEO decision. Because you raise a Series A, you know, this was never intended to be your like, end all be all this is like, you know, the super platform, it was to sort of get you further along, validate your market, validate your product, raise some funds, but then at this point, you've got a pretty big decision to see. Meaning do you continue to iterate on what you've already done? Which it exists? It's real people pay money for it? And they stick with it? Or do you say, you know, that was like, just to get us over that initial hump, we needed to show we could do, but really, we didn't necessarily architect this the way that was the ideal way we did it the way that we could deliver a MVP minimum viable product. And the reason why it's minimum is because we didn't do all the things we wanted to do. So that's decision your face. How did you start making that decision was ended up to be a critical CEO decision at this point? Yeah.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 08:14
And the warning bells are there. So I'm not sure there's a day where it's we're like, Okay, we've raised capital or Okay, the prototype phase is over, we're just moving along. And we're getting customers, we're listening to the feedback or making changes, but you start hearing the problems. So you have the developers and the architect architects saying, yeah, it's getting really, really complex in their their election spaghetti, we gotta clean up and, and that we have technical debt. And you love our software company before I wasn't coming across this term of technical debt, you know, how much do
Ben Kaplan 08:48
you owe? Who do we owe it to?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 08:50
Who pay US interest here, right?
Ben Kaplan 08:52
Yeah, what do we do? Like, do we need to get a loan to pay back the technical debt? What is this? What is this debt that exists? How do we get in, you're
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 08:58
at some
Ben Kaplan 08:58
point maybe. And for anyone who hasn't developed software before, at some point, maybe you just need to get something to work. And someone just maybe did a shortcut, if not the most scalable way, not the way that if you're not a software developer, I almost put it in terms like if you were doing remodeling of your house, you could just paint over something. And underneath it might be like broken or not really great, but you put paint over it, you don't see the underneath, there's a problem. And that might last you for a while until that problem resurfaces or gets worse or like, oh my gosh, you're gonna now remodel your kitchen, but you realize that there's this thing underneath the kitchen that you actually got to deal with now, right? Well, is that a good way to describe like technical debt, you know, you just got to deliver things. You do the coat of paint, it kind of works, but maybe your foundation isn't strong. Yeah, so
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 09:42
obviously all of that for sure. And also sometimes you develop the way you best think is what you need and then your needs change. Like there's new business needs. And then you realize that hey, if I knew that had new business needs exist to like buy new, in our case, we had business needs it was it was like listen, you The mobile app, the mobile first Methodology is is all the rage. And it makes sense. Like when you develop an app on a desktop, you want to work on a phone, as well. And we didn't develop it that way. We hadn't thought about that, in the original prototype phase, it was made for a browser on desktop wasn't made for mobile. And so that becomes a technical debt that we have this thing that wasn't really made to fit on a screen that's this small. And that, that needs to be thought of that too. So we had, we had our developer saying, Hey, this is going to be harder and harder to scale, the way that we currently built it. And we have the business side saying, Hey, we're not mobile first. So we're not creating a mobile app developer. We also had another business name, which was a marketplace, we found that some of our early users of this were actually people wanting to make their own apps, and sell their own custom apps on the platform, which we hadn't really thought about, like a cottage industry of app developers. And that needs to be factored into future improvements as well. So all in a way technical debt, because we have to overcome these these these challenges in technology.
The Detective 11:16
Paul Jackson stands at the most critical juncture of his career. The very prototype that launched Method CRM into the spotlight is revealing its cracks. And the weight of technical debt threatens to collapse the entire foundation. The horizon is darkening with the inevitable shift to mobile first applications, a revolution that could render Method CRM, obsolete the stakes, a marketplace that could either revolutionize small scale app development, or become a graveyard of unrealized potential. So what comes next for Paul and Method CRM? Do they forge ahead, refining their prototype and braving the storm? Or do they go back to square one risking time, money and their hard won reputation?
Ben Kaplan 12:18
Paul, the decision now is either stick with what you've got, don't worry about certain types of technical debt, we'll deal with it later. or deal with certain technical debt in the platform that's like critical but stay on there. Or you can create something totally new to disrupt yourself, which is start something new wash away the technical debt, but then you've got to build a new house. So it's like, are you going to remodel the house you have? Or are you going to build a new house? And what is your decision at this point there, which which leads kind of into the next phase of the company?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 12:49
Yeah, and I'll start by saying I made the worst possible decision of my CEO career. And so that was presented with two options. Option one was we said, we can we can iterate from the prototype into the things that we need to do, we can clear a technical debt, we can make a mobile friendly, we can make an app marketplace, we can get there through iterations, or B, we can tear down build new home, we can make a brand new platform that will do all these things that that you need. And those are the two options I was presented with. And this is this seemed like a pretty easy decision to make. And I probably gave it 10 minutes.
Ben Kaplan 13:27
Okay, okay, that's 10 minutes, probably like you're going by gut feel, right? A lot of people do. And then sometimes you have to, because you don't have all the information, but your gut tells you at this point that you want to rebuild the house, you need to start fresh.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 13:40
Yeah, like I think my lawn was pretty abrasive that I said back to the head developer, I said, You guys break everything anyway, I'm not going through a year of you breaking things. Okay, so start fresh. And that was, as I said, the worst decision of my career
Ben Kaplan 13:59
the worst decision because it's a bold statement of this take us through maybe before we get to 2020 hindsight Why did that prove to be a bad decision just take us through the timeline of what happens what you expected you know, you're gonna build a new house build a new platform, how long was that supposed to take? And then what sort of happens timing wise as you progress?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 14:18
Well, so it was supposed to take six to 12 months to be at least past parody of where we were today. But I can go a lot deeper on that. So I think that the proto would have spread spreadsheet of all the areas where they had to get stuff done and the size of a team and the team we thought we're gonna need to get this done. And they they multiply everything I think it was a lot longer than a year and I just challenged them cuz I thought there's no way like it's it can done way faster than that all these one week for that two weeks for that I know I could personally do away faster than that. I'm not I'm not like a no like you guys. And what I didn't understand at that time was how the law are diminishing returns and the cost of of communication really slows down software development, I saw something that I could do personally, I'm a, I'm a commerce, I'm a finance guy like it, but I can still code, I could personally code things in a day that they're putting us 20 days. And what I didn't understand was that it has to be that way you can get the person who understands product requirements as a product manager can do design can be a senior developer can be a quality assurance person, and all in one and do it the same time that someone like me, who's a founder with Dr. could do. And so by pushing them back on their timelines, to something that made sense for me, and appease me, I missed the Mr. Reality of situations,
Ben Kaplan 15:47
this has to be like a team sport, not an individual sport. And the issue is that if it's a team sport, I mean, I guess there's two problems. One, you're probably just going to need more time because you got multiple people involved, and you've got to make the communication flow. But to in this particular case, you actually had them revise the timeline to more of like an individual sport timeframe, which is just going to be unrealistic, and they're not going to be able to keep it. So it's probably it was two option meeting, you just have a long timeframe. And just but this one actually has a short timeframe that can't be helped.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 16:18
It'd be we've been called individuals for the time like, Hey, do the timelines that Paul was doing it by himself. Divided by Mo people that Robert didn't quite do it that way. But I think that's that's probably what they ended up doing, which was giving me an estimate that was something they thought was possible, but would make me happy.
Ben Kaplan 16:35
Okay, so basically, they're trying to please the CEO CEO says it's taken too long, the founder, yeah, they want to please let me give a schedule that Paul likes, and you looked at it and you liked it, he liked it better,
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 16:44
I liked it, we can handle this, we can we can figure out how to run the company for six to 12 months, in this transition phase will be good. I can sell this, this is good.
Ben Kaplan 16:52
But let's go sell it to is it sell it to your investors at this point, sell it to customers to sort of say that, like, Hey, we're gonna I don't know if there's critical customers that are seeing on the on the old platform, you're not iterating as much you're not changing, you're not adding their wish list of features. But you're saying like a hoodie got to kind of make sure as onboard,
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 17:10
we're now two years into this business, right? So there's now quite a lot of stakeholders. So we, we have our staff who have to grind and get this thing out. We have our sales team, we have a sales team at that point. Like, that was our attraction, who's who used to be on board this plan. I've got a closing a Series A round, some got investors that they'd be on board this, there's a lot of people to bring into the fold of the timeline and make sure everyone's aligned to what the year looks like.
Ben Kaplan 17:40
Okay, so you got them all on board, you had the year, the six to 12 months? And at what point do you start to be concerned about that timeline? And and what are those concerns? One of those is just a concern of delivery. But to there's a concern of like, credibility with the stakeholders that you've now promised, and you start realizing you're gonna miss the deadlines, you set yourself?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 18:02
Yeah, like almost almost immediately, within months, we are. We have monthly all hands co Townhall. And it would do demo days where we're demoing the the milestone, and like, just couldn't get anything to actually demo. Right? It was months and months and months of delays. And whatever schedules we had were just revised and almost thrown out. It was probably six months, eight months in, where we realized that this is going to take longer, and I felt it was past the point of no return. I felt like well, you know, maybe it's only four months late. So it's not worth going back to the original versions scrapping the new one and iterating from the original one, I'm sorry, that would have been better,
Ben Kaplan 18:41
that would have been better at that point, it would have been better to scrap that a month or something like that. And so take us through the timeline and the actions you have to take because as we've chatted about before, it also becomes a crisis of confidence, not just technology, meaning, yes, you've got to deliver a technological product, a platform, but you also have to keep people motivated on board and they have to believe that you're gonna get done. And what happens when you cross like the year and a half. You're further in what starts to happen at that
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 19:11
point. Yeah, so board meeting has become interesting, right. So where are we the timeline? I don't know. It's a very tough answer to give to a board. Like there's, here's here's a range, but I don't actually know because so far, the confidence on on these estimates hasn't played out. So I can also get more confident now.
Ben Kaplan 19:28
Okay, so you didn't just try to say, oh, it's definitely October, you didn't want to get definites at this point, you're hedging because he didn't want to because I
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 19:35
had I had an that had not worked. And so some board meetings are like okay, so the product thing is that's taking a while but let's talk about sales. Let's double down on growth. We're still selling the old platform, let's, let's like let's keep selling that and so a lot of the boardroom discussions are about sales growth, not about product and, and so of course that's that's a little bit awkward. And then the habit you have a sales team that is is saying well I feel bad selling to someone when I know that the platform that I'm selling them doesn't have a smooth transition path to the new platform when it comes out. And, and so we we had to make sure we had a good plan for those customers. And then we have partners. So the partners was the really hard ones we have that time you have over 100 integration partners who would who do customizations using the no code for their clients
Ben Kaplan 20:25
or their partners, but they're essentially reselling your platform with a service layer on top, and they need your platform to be solid, so that they can make money and serve their customers and not have unhappy customers on them, too.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 20:38
And then, so they sell the existing platform, knowing there's new one right around the corner. And so what do they what do they do? And so so we really, we really think disservice with these timelines to the partners because they were just stuck in purgatory like, what do I do? And so that started getting tough, I think in this and this goes on for a while. So you said you had a year and a half this goes on for a couple years before it's, it's people are really starting to get upset. And I'm an all hands every three months saying, here's where we're at, and sales are still going up. They're still doing well as a company. But the idea of what are we selling is just becoming a bigger, bigger, bigger problem.
Ben Kaplan 21:16
Okay, so it's mounting, but you actually did have some fuel some gas in the tank just from the initial product and sales, which means that it was actually like minimum viable product, but solid, it can sustain you,
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 21:27
well, solid wishes stuck with it.
Ben Kaplan 21:31
Okay, so take us through the full story as it takes about three years right to launch the new platform and what gets you over that last bit of hump to get there to keep everyone on board. And you said people are starting to get more angry that this has gone on, I
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 21:45
felt that there just needed to be proof points along the way. And so there was a couple times where I had opportunities just to make, make sure everyone saw where we were going that there was light behind the Title One was in mid 2013. We did internal, like hackathons, Shark Tank, kind of kind of events. So we were told all the staff form into teams of three to six team members and create an app using the new unfinished platform and pitched us at a at an event to a shark tank panel of judges. And so we rented out Second City, the second city is a kind of comedy house. Yeah, like
Ben Kaplan 22:32
kind of improv comedy kind of famous for like, I think Saturday night live performers came from
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 22:37
there. Half the cast is from there, like John candies from Paratus. Like,
Ben Kaplan 22:40
because you try to add some fun to it. Right? You just wanted to make it fun and remind people and use that to boost morale.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 22:46
Yeah, I think at that point that one day where we had that event, I remember thinking on the way back from the event, this is my this is my favorite day as a CEO, I felt like I believed everyone believed that like, Oh, this is amazing. What we saw today was the future, which you can actually build without code is quite amazing workflow apps. And that's the board loved it. They saw with whether the vision was all these delays, were were for something you can see what they're actually building. It is amazing product, this is going to be great. And so everyone was was happy. I was happy. I was pumped. And that rejuvenated everybody. Of course, now everyone's like, Well, why can't we just go and sell it? It's like, well, it's not actually ready. It was like good for a pitch. But it's not, there's a whole bunch of problems to resolve. And like you can't even pay for it. There's no like billing mechanism set up and go.
Ben Kaplan 23:36
Well, yeah, and of course different with your internal team, you don't really need customer support, it doesn't have to be that easy. You just work things out, you have access to the back end, if you'd realize something so different than to sell, of course. And then you replicated that also in an actual competition, right? I believe in Silicon Valley, you came and did something.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 23:53
That was other opportunities. Now we're over a year later, and now we still haven't launched. And then everyone's getting upset again. And it was one of those times where I just felt that everything was fragile. And I think every every leader, every founder probably has a certain point in their career where they feel like, it's all gonna cave in and die on me. And there's nothing I can do. And I was going through that.
Ben Kaplan 24:18
And even like, there's points and I talked to a lot of founders without myself, where there's a certain point where it's like, if I don't get done the things that need to get done today, it's on that set of thread that like I have to execute these things today, or things may crumble. Yeah,
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 24:33
it was like every little cell in my body was saying this is it. Like if you don't, if you don't do something major now everyone's gonna lose faith, and it's gonna fall apart and it's all good for nothing. And so that was that was around October or so 2014 and Intuit, the makers of QuickBooks, and now said they're doing a QB Connect. Conference, big conference. Something that had Shaq and a bunch of like really big, big speakers come to this thing. And they were competing against a new entrant to the market named 00 counting software. And so they wanted to make a big splash. They had all these symptoms associated with this, this conference. And so one of the events was this hackathon, where they were going to have an API that they're going to give to software developers and the software developers, we're going to make an app and then pitch to a panel of venture capitalists, and the winner is going to walk home with a $50,000. US check. So for software developers, right, and so I was like, This is it. This is the opportunity. So we had the all hands and I won't Lee vowed to the whole company, and invited all the board members and venture capitalists to this all hands where I proclaimed, we will go down Silicon Valley, we will enter into a hackathon against all the Silicon Valley hackers, and we're going to win, I declare victory. Now, that was like the stupidest thing you should probably do as CEO on the verge of like, destruction. That's what he does. We went down to this hackathon. There's 130 software developers working on it, we brought team down, but we had a designer you had me as the pitcher, I pitched and we were a software developer working on the API, which ended up being a Payments API. And we stayed up all night long, just like the other 132 software developers. And we, we built an app who was called Method donor, which was a nonprofit app that allowed nonprofits to collect donations online and send a sales receipt that sent to their QuickBooks accounting software, and those we built overnight and pitched it and we were finalists, and so the day of the announce winners them now since we had the whole company streaming up live with the board members will texting, hey, when you find out when you find out.
Ben Kaplan 26:51
Now your fingers crossed, or you say a little prayer at this point is like, please,
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 26:55
come on, man. Come on, come on, we're circling. And then and then we want so we actually won. And that was such a relief. Because Because well at you, I didn't make a fool of myself by promises that we can deliver on. But really, it actually proved out that no code is for you like the idea that you can go down in Silicon Valley and compete against a bunch of developers and win a pretty major competition, it was just a proof point. And that and that proof point, gave me at least six months of runway of confidence and morale for the team.
Ben Kaplan 27:26
Okay, so you did that. So you had those kinds of other things that kept things moving along. And then three years later, lo and behold, you've released the platform where all of your problems solved and and sort of puppy dogs and rainbows at that point, or where there wouldn't be launched a new platform, there's bound to be some challenges, too, because it's usually not perfect, either.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 27:44
Yeah, so So we launched in late spring 2015, it felt like we hit the finish line. But you've heard this term before the finish lines and the starting line. And so that's what it was, we had at least tested to make sure that conversions from a 30 day trial to paid we're at a comparable number between the two platforms. So once that once that threshold has been reached, turn off the old platform, in terms of the platform in terms of selling and, and of course, like there's problems this maturity issue. So there's, there's there's bugs had to go through a period of, of stability, which we had, but didn't have those issues on the old platform as it was so mature and still stable at that point. And we had still a bunch of shortcomings that that need to be resolved. And so it wasn't if 20 years before I could say it was mature, and it's now we're like 2023 it's mature, took a while to get to that point.
28:44
Pool and the Method CRM team were under siege from all sides. partners were caught in Purgatory, uncertain of what they were even selling. team morale was scraping the bottom, a cauldron of delay in doubt. But when the night is darkest, the stars shine brightest. First came the internal hackathon, a proving ground where they showcased the revolutionary power of their no code platform. Morale had resuscitated hope reborn. Yet, that was not the end. The final test was a Grand Arena
The Detective 29:23
where coders met as gladiators the hackathon in Silicon Valley. With the rapt attention of the entire company and board members tuned in live. The Method crew masterfully navigated their keyboards architecting a creative solution as they did to hope for monumental trial. Up against coding wizards and formidable competitors. They emerged victorious, proving to the world and themselves that their vision wasn't just a mirage. It was real It was workable. And it was right at their fingertips. The clouds of doubt parted, morale was reborn. But while the team has conquered their trials, challenges still lay ahead.
Ben Kaplan 30:20
Paul, what was it from there? What was the new trajectory of the company? You mentioned that if you were to go back then and do it again, we probably shouldn't have built a new platform. But once it's done, it's done. There's bugs but you fix bugs you go along, what was the trajectory? After that? Were you feeling more confident whether new challenges was business continued to grow? Was there blockers to that? How was the company doing at that point?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 30:43
Yeah. So we've we've continued to grow. And we like throughout the whole period, we continue to grow every month got easier than the previous month. Right? So so we had a, we had a strategy that we had been following, really from day one in terms of what we were trying to be as a company and how we're trying to approach the market. And so we just slowly moved towards the end goals of that strategy.
Ben Kaplan 31:03
Do you call it before you call it horizon? Strategy? Is that correct? Like you had kind of three things you were trying to accomplish. And so you're moving along those three things, you can explain what they are a bit like in sequence, or in parallel
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 31:14
in sequence, and the investment is in sequence, but they're all running in parallel. So our horizon strategy is through three bubbles like bubble one is CRM. So can we make a no code platform that allows people to use a CRM, just as well as it could a coded CRM? So can they use a CRM that's made with no code like music, Salesforce? That's proof number one. That's horizon number one. And then horizon? Number two is can we make industry specific apps like a field service solution, or nonprofit solution or manufacturing solution that competes against the manufacturing and nonprofit and field service solutions that are coded. And so we decrease investment in CRM still keep the CRM, we add investment to this, the second horizon? And the third horizon is just going to market as a no code. So really the selling an app builder where people can make their own apps from scratch? Who are coders, citizen developers buying it for that purpose? That's horizon three. So over those years, we keep moving along towards those those goals.
Ben Kaplan 32:20
And what is the challenge now? What's blocking you from reaching those? what's fueling you to reach those? What are the new decisions, the CEO that are going to be the critical ones, like the decision, you had to build a new platform or not?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 32:33
I fortunately, don't have such a major problem confronting me today, it will come that always comes, there's a major problem right around the corner. But I would say we're 100 People now. So we're, we're at the stage where we have good leadership, we have established processes, we we have very predictable revenue, very predictable costs. It's a good stage to be at. But to really, to really scale. From here, it means that we needed to go more aggressively towards that the horizon strategy. And requires funding, of course, which were profitable companies. So we we fund ourselves, but we don't, we're not taking any more VC anytime soon. So we're not we have three vertical apps struggling to 12 vertical apps next year, may go to four or five, right? And it's like, this incremental growth that comes with an organic growth company like, like what we are.
Ben Kaplan 33:29
And do you have team members who went through this all with you and stuck with it and are still there today? Or is it like, Man, that was a tour of duty? I can't believe we got through that? Well, yeah, well, the hackathon, but like, I'm good, I'm good. I need to go to something that's a little bit more chill. How are you kind of inventing the team in the company and keeping morale up when you got through some really tough morale time?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 33:48
So the morale did extract victims and took them out of our company? So we have we have a few people who, of course, were there for the whole thing, the whole ride. And there were the today the premier leadership team today, I guess that's the that's been they know that much. And they've learned and grown that much. But during such a chaotic period, leaders and team members and engineers came and went at a faster pace than they would at a more mature stage like we are now. So we lost some good people. Because the turmoil for sure. I don't think anyone was like, anyone got to the other side. They're like, Oh, wow, that was so stressful. I'm gonna leave now. That wasn't the case. It was too stressful on I'm pulling the chute. I'm out the those who got to their side of the chaos and 2017 2018 but those maturity years, they're with me today.
Ben Kaplan 34:43
And what is your advice then for other CEOs? Either A, facing this sort of this question, it doesn't have to be even technical based, meaning like, there's always this question of you built something, whatever it is, and then you get further along and real lies that you might have made different decisions on how you did it. Because you understand your market or your product, or there's new competitors. There's other things. What is your advice for CEOs in evaluating that? If you were going to do like more than the 10 minute version this time, and you're going to help someone else, whether they're software based or not, what would be your advice? And how to think about it?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 35:19
Yeah, I think the first key though, is recognizing that you're about to make a material decision, which I don't know is easy, because as founders and CEOs, we're making a lot of decisions every day. And sometimes, material decisions aren't as obvious of the material as others. Now my case, I knew that was material decision, and I still made a terrible choice,
Ben Kaplan 35:39
you need to understand the stakes of what you're doing so that you can be like, not gonna fly by the seat of my pants on this one, because the stakes are high.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 35:48
That's it, I think it's I think, if you are understanding this as a material decision, so by framing the question that way, then take, of course, is take the time and do the research. Like there's if I if I had done that, but I did realize this material, if I had done the research, I would realize there are books upon books written about the death of companies due to replatforming. This is a known thing that you don't do. And so I didn't do any of that. And, and also, there's others who are available for advice, and I didn't seek advice as well. So some of us a standards out there are don't need much advice we don't think we do we just drive ahead, we'll always figure out the problem that's in front of us, we're optimistic, we're problem solvers. Like we'll dive in and figure it out. But if you're making a material decision that is very hard to come back from, that's when you can just throw your pride away and get some advice. And that's what I did not do.
Ben Kaplan 36:44
You mentioned the point of no return. And as a CEO, you're allowed to make wrong decisions, or just have more information or realize that the situation changes and and say that actually, that was maybe the right decision, given the situation, the information I had, but that situation or information is not the same. I need to change it. So at what point do you recommend like, you've got to stick with it, because hey, your team doesn't want the CEO to be like changing every day like Tuesday, we're at replatform. And Wednesday, we're not Thursday, we are again, versus giving yourself the freedom to sort of say like, oh, I might have made a mistake. And I've got to turn back which even you yourself, say might have been the right decision at eight months in or something like that.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 37:26
Yeah, I think what I've, I've gotten better at, as I've learned and grown personally, is recognizing that there's that question to ask when you're making a decision is, what's the cost to come back from a wrong choice? Because I mean, we're making decisions every day. And I like to be very decisive and make decisions. But I now stop and say, Well, this is the wrong decision. What's the cost? Come back? And if it's really big, now, I'll pause. And I'll really think about it. That's what that's how I've grown as leader.
Ben Kaplan 37:58
And finally, what is your recommendation to other founders in difficult times? Maybe they made their decision. Maybe they passed the point of no return. Maybe it might not have been the right decision, but they're holding it together. Like you were holding it together. And they've got to keep everyone's morale, they've got to keep belief they've got to decisions made water under the bridge. Now we've just got to keep going. What is your advice to them? If look for a hackathon? Is it something else? Or is it what do you do to keep everything together?
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 38:27
Well, I think it's a really hard time to go through as a leader. But especially as a CEO, and there's definitely is not new news that the the job is lonely, like, there's not that cool to talk to. So if you are at a point where you have to carry a team through a tough period, you got to put a brave face on and, and you got to make sure you believe what you're saying. But you're saying things that like that don't have 100% certainty. And that's tough sometimes. And so if you're just harboring all that self doubt, and worry yourself, you're not talking to someone about it, you're doing the service. So join a founders forum group, join a YPO make sure you have a buddy as a founder, you can go for long walks with and like vent to, it will help you because I think I didn't have that. And so it was just all on me to stress through myself. So I would say make sure you have a good network of people you can talk to until you can vent to the arc, your board, directors staff.
Ben Kaplan 39:27
And there's a few things that one you might get advice. Someone might have some experience or know someone else too, you might just get support. It might just be therapeutic. But then three, you might get something that doesn't match at all, but it just allows you to riff off it iterate off it sparks an idea, something else so so one of the things I think that is underrated about those kinds of conversations is that you might get benefit from it in multiple ways and really like only one of those things where they get a great tip or you get some great support or you get something that is just out of left field but sparks an idea in yourself that allows you to do it. There's multiple ways to win. And it's one of those things where CEOs, I feel like we never feel like we have time for that for your proverbial like long walk. No, it's like on a fire today, like I'm holding this on by a thin thread, I'm gonna go walk for two hours with a buddy and we're just gonna chat. I don't have time for that. Yet. Every time you do it, you're like, Oh, that was so worthwhile. Like, why don't I make more time for this? And this is this dichotomy, particularly when you're in a crisis, right? You feel like you don't have the time. And yet it's so valuable when you do it.
Paul Jackson - Method CRM 40:27
Yeah. 100 agree with everything you just said, like I joined a founders forum group, there's seven of us, and we meet once a quarter. And we all know everything about those companies. And we were going through personally as well. So I would, I would join one of those if you're not already on one of those. And then then your two hour walk doesn't help you to our walk during crisis, it can be 20 minutes, because they already have the context, you always have the time between that's
The Detective 40:55
me Method CRM launched with a dream of creating a no code platform, at a time when no code was a term on the fringes of the tech world. As their ambitions met reality, the initial prototype strain to align with an ever changing vision. No one model could cater to all Methods one size fits all software became a relic of the past, as customer needs groom, diverse and complex. The solution, a more flexible platform, simple in theory, intricate in execution, and riddled with its own new set of dilemmas. Their MVP wasn't just viable. It was a maze of complexities demanding relentless effort from a tight knit team. Balancing broad functionality with user friendliness was a Herculean task. And let's not forget the accruing technical debt. That invisible burden growing heavier with each new feature bogging down scalability. We live in a mobile first world and Method CRMs initial focus on desktop platforms became an Achilles heel. The newly acquired series A investment poised a Shakespearean question, to iterate or to re architect. Amidst all of this. Paul and his team listened to us a feedback became the lodestar. A beacon in the fog of technical limitations and vision casting in the face of daunting challenges, opportunities arise, demanding metamorphosis and inspire solutions that define our collective future. It's case closed
The Detective 42:52
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