BREAK THE INTERNET: Mark Schaefer: Mastering Personal Branding

Mark Schaeffer  00:00

A personal brand is about serving people. It's about helping them solve a problem in a unique way. And that's how you really build your brand.

‍

Ben Kaplan  00:10

This is the show about the people who create, amplify and influence our culture, and how they do it. Want to capture lightning in the bottle, want your content to spread like wildfire. I'm Ben Kaplan, and let's break

‍

Tom Cain  00:23

the internet. Today we're speaking to Mark Schaefer, a marketing expert, prolific author and a thought leader in personal branding and influence marketing, you might recognize him from his best selling books like no return on influence and his latest belonging to the brand. He's here to share valuable insights on building a personal brand, the difference between fame and influence and how to connect with your audience, effectively. Let's get to it.

‍

Ben Kaplan  00:53

Mark, you're a marketing influencer. You're a prolific book, author. And we're going to talk about all of that. But specifically, I love this idea that you talk about the difference between building a personal brand and becoming famous. There's a lot people listening who maybe would like to do both. But what is the difference between building a personal brand and becoming famous in the context of social media and content creation? 

‍

Mark Schaeffer  01:20

Well, I think both are interesting. I think both are important and represent their own opportunities. But this distinction, Ben really sort of landed on me when I was I was a speaker at South by Southwest this year. And one of the sessions was about building your personal brand. I thought, well, that's interesting, because that's what I'm all about. I'm really, you know, I wrote the book, the best selling book, got it. I've studied this for many, many years. And what it really was about, it wasn't really about building and curating a personal brand. It was about becoming famous on Tik Tok, essentially. And I thought, well, that's really interesting, because that's not really what I consider a personal brand that's really sort of being famous creating fame becoming known for maybe it's singing or maybe it's doing skits, or maybe it's doing you know, whatever you you're doing on on Tik Tok to sort of get millions and millions of followers and hopefully get a brand contract. In the early days of influence. We're really built on what you knew this was before the TIC tock days, even before the Instagram days, you wrote the book return on influence 2012 This is an early days, this is still where Instagram was like super inexpensive way to market and you could reach people. And it was before it was built up and all of that. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not even sure Instagram was even, you know, really out at that point. But in 2012, what I saw Ben was the power in the world was shifting. In my days, as a young guy in marketing, it was all about broadcasting, it was the people that had power, were the people at the TV stations and the advertising agencies, and how would I become known 25 or 30 years ago, that was someone else's decision, right? They had to pick you to be on TV, they had to pick you to be in their magazine, I saw the world shifting the power shifting, with the beginning of the internet, we all had an opportunity to have influence in this world. And you can kind of like raise your own hand, right? And say, I'm a thought leader. That's right, the barriers were low, right? You could create your own content, it didn't matter where you came from, it didn't matter if you went to the right school, or married into the right family power, how much money you had, or the color of your skin. Everybody had a chance to create influence. And more importantly, which wasn't obvious back in 2012, create an audience that was actionable, that you would influence and I saw this happening. And I knew this was going to be interesting for brands and I predicted at the end of this book. Nobody was using the word influencer back in 2012. I said, but in the next two years influence marketing is going to become a mainstream marketing channel. And if you go to Google Trends and putting put in influencer marketing 2012, nothing 2013 Nothing 2014 hockey stick. So that was sort of the world I grew up in, where you created influence from your content from your expertise in your field, not necessarily your personality, not necessarily being an entertainer. And so the world is sort of shifted. 

‍

Ben Kaplan  04:41

I've spoken with a lot of creators or influencers who say I mean, when they start out, usually you try a lot of things right and in lots of things, some work, some doesn't work, you kind of build an audience. It's not universally true, but a lot of the ones that have become successful actually start focusing more

‍

Ben Kaplan  05:00

because they start realizing, you know what works, they start getting known for something else. And in some sense, they are not just like, I don't know, anything that might get an eyeball entertain. They're like, No, no, it's incredibly noisy. There's so much you can consume. People need to know, they come and see Mark, or Ben, or whomever they know what they're getting. And they expect it. And when you say in some ways that is brand building, maybe not global thought expertise in writing books, but it's like building something that you stand for that people can expect 100%

‍

Mark Schaeffer  05:34

And I don't mean to imply that like, it's like, there's two different things now or there's no overlap, or one's replaced the other. I think these two sort of areas coexist. So when I did my research, what I found is like everybody who becomes known in their field, there's four steps. And the first one is exactly what you said, You've got to be clear about what you want to be known for. Where do you fit in this ecosystem, right? So even if you're doing hair or makeup or something like that, you can't just do what everybody else is doing. Right? It's got to be, I saw someone on Tik Tok the other day, you know, her thing is she changes her hair color, like every week. And so there's certain things that go with that, right? Is that she damaging her hair? How does she repair her hair as she takes people along on that adventure? So she's found her niche in a very crowded field, and encourage people to think about how do you finish this sentence? Only, I only know that's really hard. It takes some introspection. But if you can finish that sentence, only I or you talked about corporate brand building only we, you've got to be able to think that through because that helps you focus on how am I different? How do I stand out? Why do people love me? Why do people want to buy things from me? Why do they trust me? How do I stand out?

‍

Ben Kaplan  06:59

And I think it's a little bit harder than it looks or sounds to answer that question. Because it's also not just what's in your own mind, like, oh, it's clear to me, it's clear that obviously, I'm the only one doing it this way, or the only one doing these things, but it's also how other people perceive it. And that when you have other creators, and they get to the point, especially like monetization, where you start to have bigger audiences, you want to get paid to do things, and other brands, or companies or agencies are going to kind of be like, Oh, Mary, she's the person who does x. And if they can't explain it easily, it's very hard for them to sell it, it's hard for you to sell yourself. So it becomes like, can you make it simple enough that other people get it? Who don't study you all day long?

‍

Mark Schaeffer  07:43

That's a very important consideration, Ben, and another one is whatever you decide on, is there an audience big enough? Who cares? Right? So I mean, you see that problem. And one of the sort of myths, I think, in marketing right now, is people say, if you're not making it, you probably haven't niched down enough. I disagree. I think people can niche down too quickly, and put themselves in a niche so small, that there's not enough people that care, and there's not enough people that can pay for it. So I mean, don't start off too niche too quickly. My advice is start a little bit more broadly. And then listen really carefully to your audience. Where are they pulling you? The world will kind of tell you, eventually, where you fit. I often say we create content, but content also creates us because your audience will respond. And one day they'll say, Oh, Ben, that show that show you did with Mark Schaefer. Wow, that was awesome. He really blew my mind, he taught me something I never heard before. I'm just dreaming up an example here, Ben, and then you think I'll do more of that. So the content is forming you. And maybe you've even experienced that in your own career, as you've tried to find your niche. Well, it's often

‍

Ben Kaplan  09:02

a faster process to create things and get feedback and adjust than to lock yourself in a room and be like, I'm going to come up with the most brilliant idea that no one on Tik Tok has ever seen before. That's pretty hard.

‍

Mark Schaeffer  09:17

I agree to do that start. Just start. Yeah.

‍

Ben Kaplan  09:20

So you said number one, be clear of what you want to be known for. What are the other three things? Well,

‍

Mark Schaeffer  09:25

number two. So number one is sort of like what is the story about me? I think you said this very well. You've got to be able to describe what you do or what makes you different in a very succinct, simple way. Number two, now that you have a story, where are you going to tell the story? Is there a certain place or a certain waves certain place that you can own? There's different from everybody else? A quick example, I have a friend, maybe you've heard of John Lee Dumas, John Lee create, you know, was learning how to be an entrepreneur. He was was listening to podcasts. He said, You know, I've been through all these episodes. And now I gotta wait a week to the next one. Why doesn't somebody create a podcast about entrepreneurship every single day, so he did it. So he found a way to maneuver using the available channels that sort of made him distinctive. So that's a possibility to explore. That's number two. Number three is creating the actual content to be known, you've got to show up, you've got to do it consistently, you can't give up, it takes a long time to get momentum and gather an audience and get that feedback. As you say, my personal recommendation is to pick one, channel two is to stand out today, you've got to be great, you cannot be great in 20 places. So if you have a dream of doing a podcast, if you have a dream, of doing, you know, videos on Tiktok, whatever is going to make you happy and bring you joy. That's what you should pursue, because you're gonna have to stick with this a long time. What we're seeing today is a lot of creators are burning out, you know, they're, they're saying I need to take a mental health break. So you're going to be spending a lot of time with this. So pick some content form that you love. And don't worry about the competition so much. Because there's only one you you've got to bring your own energy, your own angle, the most important thing is you are doing something that you love, because you're going to be sticking with it for a long time. And then the fourth thing is to build an actionable audience. That is not necessarily the same as a social media audience. A social media audience, many times are weak relational links, you put something on social media, maybe it feels like you're throwing a bottle in the ocean waiting for someone to pick it

‍

Ben Kaplan  11:42

up. You mean that it's not necessarily an actual audience. It's not someone just like, likes your content. That's not a very low level action. Yeah.

‍

Mark Schaeffer  11:51

So what you want to do is get subscribers, right. And especially if you can get in a professional sense, if you can even build like an email list, because an email list that those are people that have raised their hand saying, I believe in you, I love you, I want to know more. Those are the people that are gonna buy stuff from you someday, right? They're gonna buy your seminars, and your courses and your books, your speeches and your workshops. So if you can build an email list through some sort of exclusive content, that's the best scenario of all. But so it's really trying to think about who is going to make my dreams come true. And focus on those people, especially look at clues like who is sharing my content, I call that your alpha audience, the most important audience, they are activating they are creating organic advocacy for your content and what you're doing. And you should know those people by name and treat them very well.

‍

Ben Kaplan  12:51

Do you think it's harder now to become a creator to become an influencer? Is it harder because a lot of things have been done before? And also because it's kind of like a known thing, like, you know, someone want to be rich and famous out of nowhere. We want to be like, I want to be a musician. I want to be an athlete, I want to have a skill. Now. It's like, this is a legitimate way to become that. Is it harder than it was before? stand out?

‍

Mark Schaeffer  13:15

No. And here's why. It's always been hard to stand out. I mean, to be great. You've got to be like LeBron James, right? Is it easy to be Lebron James? No, it's never been easy to be LeBron James, or Michael Jordan, or Wilt Chamberlain, whoever, whoever the, you know, the best basketball player is if you want to enter a tier where you can monetize, you can't just be competent. Your competency doesn't create conversations, somebody who's great, someone who stands out, and it is hard. I mean, and I encourage everyone who wants to try to do it. I think there's still many, many opportunities to find your niche again, because there's only one you there's only one person like you that has your attitude, and your background and your heritage and your experiences. You can tell a different story than anybody else. You don't have to be LeBron James to make money. There's plenty of basketball players that make money. I would say, I'm not Lebron James. But you know, I do very, very well. I've never spent a dime on advertising in my life. And I've got a very successful global company. I

‍

Ben Kaplan  14:25

know whether it's your LinkedIn that has 34,000 followers, or it's Twitter that's in the hundreds of 1000s spent a lot of effort building your brand, what you're known for. So people come just to see you not necessarily the content you produce. But let's say you do have some traction, someone someone listening, someone watching, and they want to get to the point where they're constantly having to invent really amazing content to keep fueling what they've created. Versus at a certain point people come you have this like baseline no matter what you do, you have an audience. What is it take To get there, which is like this higher level of audience recognition and engagement. So there's,

‍

Mark Schaeffer  15:06

there's really two things to think about. And when I listened to your question, it's like, okay, I'm creating all this great content, you know, when can I stop? And the answer to that is never. It's competitive, right? And I've studied this probably more than any human being on Earth, how do you create an audience and the key is creating an emotional connection, whether it's a person or a company, right? If I say Coca Cola is building a hotel in your town, you could probably imagine what that's going to be like, what it's going to feel like what it's going to sound like. That's the emotional expectation that comes with a brand. And it's, it's the same for people. But you can't create that without a lot of effort, a lot of consistent effort. And I've looked at how do people build their audiences? What are the keys, there's lots of little tricks you can do. But here is the number one strategy, it's so far ahead of number two, nothing is even close. And this is it, you've got to double down on the content period, you might be able to use some SEO or something to trick people on a link, you can't trick people to read it or view it, you can't trick people to subscribe. You can't trick people to give you an A big open rate, or to say stay subscribe to you, or best of all, to recommend you to other people. That's how you really grow your audience. There's only one way it's got to be great content. I've had a blog, I just hit my 15th year anniversary, I've had a podcast for 12 years, I've written 12 books. And here's what's in my mind, every single moment I create content, I will never let you down. You may not agree with me, you may not particularly like this one. But it's got to be worth your time, it's going to be interesting. I'm going to give you everything I've got, every single day, there is no shortcut. And let's

‍

Ben Kaplan  17:01

say you get to this level of people, you start getting known to be the go to person in your field to be the best or be really recognized not just on the what is required there. What is that extra step that you have to do? Like let's say you commit to the content, you great guy come to your thought of a thought leader, but to be the go to person, what do you have to do? What do you have to accomplish? You know,

‍

Mark Schaeffer  17:24

honestly, this is an answer that might surprise you. It really is consistency. It's not giving up. When I wrote my book of personal branding, I interviewed 97 people around the world who are known in their field. And at the end of the interview, I said if you have one piece of advice for someone who wants to stand out and be the go to person in their field known in their field, what would it be? Almost every person said people quit too soon. Don't give up. be resilient, Be tenacious. And that's the big difference. I see a lot of people who are heading in the right direction, and then it's just not going fast enough for them. I mean, it's not a hockey stick slow. But sure. Do you like the black keys? The Rock Band? Sure, sure. Yeah, I got to meet the black keys. I got to go backstage. A few years ago, when they were just really getting to the next level. I saw them they're playing in a theater that had like 2000 people, like two, three years later, they were selling out Madison Square Garden. They were just really launching. So I talked to Patrick Carney the drummer, I said, because I was interested. I was working on this personal brand stuff, right? I said, Patrick, what was it? Like? What was that ignition point? What was the thing? Was it luck? Was it someone you know, like what launched you to the next level. And he thought for a minute, he said, There isn't one. He said, we've been touring for six years, we've created six albums, we work and work and work and we don't give up and we want every album to be a little better than the last one. We want every tour to be a little better than the last one. He said, you just you just hang in there. You just do it consistently and you try to do a little bit better each month and each year. That's the secret. You know, consistency is more important than genius. If you if you hang in there and keep doing it, and as long as you see signs that it's working, and it might not necessarily be money at first. If people call you up and say Oh, I saw this. This content you made? Will you be on my podcast, it's working. If someone says, Hey, I heard you on the show. Can I ask you a question? It's working people are paying attention. Those are leading indicators to bigger things don't give up. As long as you see those qualitative measures that people are paying attention to it's working. Don't give up and stick with it.

‍

Ben Kaplan  19:55

It's interesting because it's signs that things are working is different. Then thing that then just having things that are working, right meeting, it doesn't mean it's necessarily done all the things you want to do. But you start seeing indications. I also think it's interesting this notion of consistency. Because to use your LeBron James example, again, the difference between LeBron James and just other really good basketball players in the NBA is that consistency day in and day out that there's lots of people probably in the NBA who can score 30 points in a game on a given day. In fact, there's a bunch of people who could probably do that repeatedly. It's not a fluke. But to be able to do that and have impact in every game 82 games a year and the playoffs and when you're not feeling well. And when you're having a bad day, and you fought with your spouse that day and still be able to do that, that becomes rare in terms of that level of consistency. Bingo.

‍

Mark Schaeffer  20:49

Exactly. Right. So like, I know, I'm gonna get sick. I know, I'm gonna have a bad day. I know, I'm gonna go on vacation. And you know what? I've blogged ahead. There have been even times I've created podcasts ahead. There was one time a few months ago, I had COVID. I couldn't speak. I couldn't do my podcast episode. I have never missed an episode it 12 years, that what am I going to? Do you know what I did? I used AI, I could write a podcast, I did an entire voice synthesis podcast, it sounded just like me, it freaked people out. I think maybe I was the first person to ever do that. But the point is, you just don't quit. You just don't give up just like all those, you know, athletes or celebrities who we think oh, you know, they were just born at the top they weren't. They worked and worked and worked. You know, I was listening. I was watching like March Madness. They talked about these college basketball players that they do like 5000, free throws a week or something, you know, it's just like, ridiculous how hard they work. Because they have a vision, they want to be the best, and they don't give up. And it's the same in our field to

‍

Ben Kaplan  21:55

to ask the question the opposite way. What are the biggest mistakes besides giving up that people when they want to become a creator, become an influencer, build a personal brand? What are the biggest mistakes people make, or the things they spend their time on? That doesn't really matter much, but yet they devote a lot of their energy to it.

‍

Mark Schaeffer  22:15

I think a big mistake is thinking too much that it's all about you. A personal brand really has to be no maybe if you're again, it's there's sort of like this difference about people, the people love them because they're beautiful, or they can sing well, or something like that. But really, I think a big mistake that people make, especially in the business world, is you know, I look at their website, it has all their awards. And social proof is important. I'm not dismissing that. But the most important thing is that I want to see is this is the problem I solve for you. And here's how I uniquely solve it. Right. So you're teaching people how to Break The Internet, right how to become known on the internet. I think that's fantastic. I think that's great. It's not all about you, you are serving your audience, you're helping them achieve something, if you have something that's all about you. That could be a passion project. That could be a hobby, but that's not necessarily something that someone's going to pay you for. You've got to be very clear that a personal brand is about serving people is about helping them solve a problem in a unique way. And that's how you really build your your brand.

‍

Ben Kaplan  23:25

And even when it might be something that seems more you know, just for entertainment, it actually is still about your audience. Even though when it seems like attention is on you. I learned this because we did a lot of viral cat videos to Break The Internet for our marketing agency had tons of cat food brands and we had Meow Mix and nine lives as clients. So we're making a lot of like viral cat content. But the content that always did the best was always the things that was actually audience focused. It was just delivered through cats like we would have a cat who knocked over a plant and cats knock things over. But we'd have a caption on that that would say you know what mistakes happen? You break stuff. That's okay. Give yourself a break. Don't worry about and it was always that like insight about the audience right? Or we have a cat sleeping and like little caption would say I sleep for 17 1819 but never 20 hours in a row. That would be excessive. It was always like you hit the snooze button you deserve to sleep in when we made it about the audience even with cats which are cute, which are like naturally viral still content that was about the audience then about the cat always did better. Yeah,

‍

Mark Schaeffer  24:39

because you're still it gets back to the very first thing we talked about it. A brand is about building that emotional expectation. And if you can build if you can connect to people in their cats, that's about as big as you can get.

‍

Ben Kaplan  24:53

Well, final question for you. Mark is Do you think this is just a content creator? Russian influence. Is it just a young person's game at this point? Or do you think it's something like a lot of the tools have become dominated by, you know, those that are maybe earlier out in their career? Or do you think there's room for those who maybe aren't as early but could still create something of value?

‍

Mark Schaeffer  25:16

What a lovely question, Ben. You know, I've wrote my first blog when I was 49, maybe 50. I didn't do my first professional speaking engagement till I was 52. When I started out, I had a colleague who was like, he was at the top of his field, he had the biggest podcast in the world, you know, and he said, Mark, he said, You're too late, and you're too old. And honestly, now I'm bigger than him.

‍

Ben Kaplan  25:46

Have you liked me now.

‍

Mark Schaeffer  25:49

But it's, I mean, I wasn't preoccupied with anything. I just was preoccupied with doing my best and creating great content, and really helping people and being kind and being generous. To me, it was important to set an example that to succeed on the web, you didn't have to be toxic, and you didn't have to be mean, you could be kind, you could lift people up, you could try to unify. And I think people were ready for that, you know, if you think about 2008 2009, it was starting to get really, really toxic on the web. So, you know, people liked hearing from a person like me, so I think I'm living proof that even an unexpected person like me can do well. And it's just really about having the courage to start at having the courage to show yourself to show up something I've had to learn. It was not easy. For me to be open to be vulnerable. I grew up in a family that was very stoic, you know, you didn't, you didn't talk about your emotions. And I kind of had to learn how to do that. But if you have the courage to add your own story, to be original, you have to stand out to stand out, you only have one choice, there's only one you you have to tell your story, you have to add your story to whatever you do, and that it doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter how old you are, anybody has the opportunity to do that well,

‍

Ben Kaplan  27:10

and to build on your four points. And of course, your book, known in 2017, return on influence in 2012. More recently, belonging to the brand in 2023, I would add one little precursor and corollary to everything you said, which is that you have to believe that you have something of value to offer before you do anything else before you do any of this. And ultimately, it sounds like all of us have something of value to offer. And that first little bit of self belief in yourself. And if you don't quite have it yet, you fake it for a little bit. And then you kind of grow into it. But like, ultimately, you've got to have something to say and I believe everyone has something to say of great value.

‍

Mark Schaeffer  27:51

I agree. I couldn't agree with you more. Great. Well, there you

‍

Ben Kaplan  27:54

have it. Mark Schaefer, we're in the agreement or mutual admiration society or whatever, whatever it is. Great work. Thanks for having us. Uh, thanks for being on the show. Thanks you for your insights and how to Break The Internet.

‍

Mark Schaeffer  28:04

Thank you so much.

‍

Tom Cain  28:09

Mark shared some interesting insights for new content creators from the importance of consistency and finding your unique voice to deeply connecting with your audience. A successful channel takes time, effort and a lot of passion. Take Marc's advice to heart start broad listen to your audience, and don't give up your unique story and perspective are what will set you apart. If you like this episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with your friends. We have loads more amazing guests and tips on how to Break The Internet. This episode was brought to you by TOP Thought Leader go viral with TTL check out all our shows at topthoughtleader.com. Like and Subscribe

‍